Welcome to the message board for "30 Top Action Art Sites List brought by TrueFresco.com

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Take advantage of this brand new list!

Have you seen lists with the hundreds of members? Have you thought: "I should join this list, it seems to be very popular!"? Guess what? It is popular, but you have to be at the top 10-30 to enjoy the traffic! To get to the top your site must send more visitors to the list than the sites that are currently at the top but they already have hundreds or thousands "clicks" and you start with zero! How did those sites get so many "clicks"?

They joined the list when it was brand new - like this one! To make it more attractive first ten members will have their links (quality art sites only) placed on the lists home page permanently!

Posted by admin with the permission from Cam Timlik

I had signed up for your topsites list but to be honest with you I have always thought that these type of lists serve little purpose as
the measurement of a site's popularity isn't based on how many
visitors a site has(which to me would determine popularity) but on
how many leave. Just the same, being on the list for a while will
hopefully introduce my site to some visitors. I always say one
shouldn't miss any opportunity to promote.

Thanks for joining the group and I hope we will hear from you again.

Cam Timlick - imagemakers.mb.ca

Over 200 new items added, many free or almost no cost.
Great Game and Educational program selection
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Visit our Guest Artist Gallery
http://www.imagemakers.mb.ca/guest/guest.html

Be sure to visit our on-line Art Gallery
http://www.imagemakers.mb.ca

Hi Cam, thank you for both joining the list and warm review of my site!
You are right - this lists serve little purpose if they used just as lists with links, but as a community they are pritty good tool for sharing the visitors and rates the sites popularity based on statistics - like banner adds 100 "just visitors" to your site will produce X ammount of clicks to the list - more popular the website, more people will visit the list! In the corporate world (that I am not a member of, but know a few sicrets) these visitors called "stray visitors" - the lists purpose is to cupture them within the community
and match with the member that will provide the needed information or artwork or simply entertainment. Satisfied this way people will come back to your site or other members sites again and again. So by participating in the such community we do each other a favor by sharing visitors that would live our own site anyway! Ok now is the tough part this scenario will only work if everyone has the link to the list in traffic areas of their sites and the sites are the quality sites. So if the list is used as the end result with hopes that it will work itself non of the quility sites, like yours, should put the lists logo in the major traffic areas. I will not!
To avoid such a pitfall I am using list merely as a convinient and familiar to most of us software. What I am creating is a valuable community, selecting quility sites like yours, to be placed permanently on the list's(communitiy's) homepage after carefull review and approval. After I select "first ten" finalists from new members, in a day or two I will remove the offer (read below) and will start feature merits of other members sites and guest artists from my collection and new comers to the list. First guest artist will be Year 2000 Carnegie Art Award ($50K) winner Petri Hytonen from
Finland that I am friends for 12 years and have exhibited with. So keep checking the site. Did I mention that all this is free now and in the future?
We are up to an exciting future and I am glad that you are on board. One may ask "why he is doing all that? where is the catch?"
There isn't one - I am doing it to show and rase awareness that the art of fresco is undergoing a modern revival and to built a base for the international fresco society through making information on fresco easily accessable to people. I am on my tenth year of this quest and fith online. The results are somehow satisfactory, together with Amy Bowers (Emmy Award winning, documentarist) we in post-production of a
full lenght "Albuquerque Fresco - Inside Look" fresco technique -
educational documentary feature. A free introductory video is
availabe at www.truefresco.com And online if you search for fresco in any, and I mean any search engine truefresco.com or main page of its section's (over 350 pages and growing) will come up in the first ten.

sorry for the mini rant and braggin - LA gets to me, i guess.

Once again Thank You for joining.

Ilia Anossov
fresco painter, sculptor
www.truefresco.com

Posted by admin with the permission from Cam Timlic

Hi Ilia,
Yes, I agree with you about the community aspects of the list. I
think it is very important for all of us involved in the arts on the web
to form mutually benificial relationships to help the cause of the arts in
general. That was the reason for me joining the onlineartgalleries
group originally, little did I know at that time that the moderatror
who had started it wanted to close it down and I would soon be
the moderator. But I think it is important that we do bond together,
whether it be through lists such as the Top 30 or through groups such
as onlineartgalleries and other art related groups.

I went to the Top 30 page myself today and took a look through one
of the sites included. I was very impressed with the artist's work and
sent an e-mail concerning trading links and an offer of exhibiting as a
Guest Artist in the future. Another way of continueing to make the
community grow. The web is a very big place and the more we can
do to help each other out the smaller we can make it or at least we
can help make it easier for our site visitors to be directed to other
members of our own circles. I noticed that a couple of other familiar
names have also joined your list, nice to see.

One of the reasons that I see my site quickly fading from your list is
the placement of the links to the Top 30. I placed a total of seven
links on my site, all of which are located in my artists' links section.
This seems like a logical place for them to me as it is the place on
my site people would go if they are interested in surfing art sites. But
the links are on only seven of over 1300 pages on my site. From
the period of time when I was actually monitoring site activity one of the
things I became aware of was that very few visitors actually came to
my site through the front door and therefore wouldn't be aware of the
depth of the site and what varied resources it actually has. So often they
would come looking for something specific, either find it or not and then
leave. So unless visitors go to the main page they won't even know that
there is an artists' links page. Sort of running a small ad in a huge
newspaper, chances are it won't get seen, but in my case the Top 30
links will get seen by those that are looking for this type of link. A
much smaller site without as many ways out as mine would have a
better chance of visitors clicking on the Top 30 link thus raising their
position on lists of this type but not neccessarily making them a better
site to visit, that site would be a site that offered less links as avenues
for leaving. I don't know how many external links are on my site but I
think 10,000 would be a good guess. It's a matter of putting the links
on targeted pages. Well, just some thoughts on the subject.

Just as a little side note, a little while ago I was doing some search
engine scouting for rankings of my site on certain subjects and one
of the links on a Top 100 listing to my site came up higher ranked
than the actual link to my site...made me scratch my head for sure.

I have also been scratching my head about an artist who one of my artist
friends is wild about. He did some frescoes as well and he is a living
contemporary artist, I just can't think of his name. I had some of his
images saved, but the disk that they were on frazzled out. I hate when
this happens. One of the frescoes was for a patrons swimming pool
area, maybe you can think of who it was and put an end to this brain
deadness. He's quite famous!!

Cam Timlic

===============================================
Over 200 new items added, many free or almost no cost.
Great Game and Educational program selection
http://www.PublishersPipeline.com/cgi-win/pp-a.exe/a6f0e1/

Visit our Guest Artist Gallery
http://www.imagemakers.mb.ca/guest/guest.html

Be sure to visit our on-line Art Gallery
http://www.imagemakers.mb.ca
===============================================

Hi Cam,
I am happy to see that the Top 30 list is working as I hoped it
would. Even more encouraging that I am a third way done in arranging
the services for our new community, but already you have found use
for it and a new artist. One of them will be featuring of the artists
members and guest artist, so small sites with little will have a
sudden boost of visitors and extra exposure (att : Sunnffunn's
posting, just before these two). Another Lists Forums (Cafe al
Fresco) is set up already and linked to the list, but I have to write
a script to transport headlines of the new posting to the list's
homepage (pretty exciting feature, will do in a few days after 10
finalists for complimentary link will be selected). I was thinking
about mailing list but ended up creating forums, due to the Mlists
setback - inability to hold threaded discussions post images, etc
(looking for moderator though). Then a few things that I keep up my
sleeve for now.
I am very happy to see that such reputable and informative sites like
yours, Ross O'Neil's, Muralplus, MuralGalleries and many others have
joined the community in just a couple of days, placed links etc. It
make's me work twice as hard and with twice as much enthusiasm to
match up to the expectations.
In regards of your site to fade from the list, I have to say that it
can be remedied through the "guest artist" not only as an artist but
as an associate curator presenting featured on your site artist on
the Top 30. And in the forums. This will not interfere with site
ranking function of the list and small sites will go up on a fare
chance, I agree with you on that completely, for example The Art
Coalition site (about 15-20 pages) is higher than yours but they have
only one link to the list on their homepage.

About fresco artist- from the top of my head? It would help if you
tell his location at least. also check Modern Fresco Gallery section
of truefresco.com http://www.truefresco.com/index1.html and click
(artists) from there.

Ilia Anossov

Posted by the admin with the permission of Cam Timlick

Hi Ilia,
I thought I would wait a couple of days before replying to
your e-mail to see if my hypothesis of the Top sites would
be correct or not and it seems as though it is.

fresco@t... wrote:

> In regards of your site to fade from the list, I have to say that it
> can be remedied through the "guest artist" not only as an artist but
> as an associate curator presenting featured on your site artist on
> the Top 30. And in the forums. This will not interfere with site
> ranking function of the list and small sites will go up on a fare
> chance, I agree with you on that completely, for example The Art
> Coalition site (about 15-20 pages) is higher than yours but they have
> only one link to the list on their homepage.

This is exactly my point. Firstly, I am not knocking the quality of any of
the sites on the list, but the smaller the site there is a higher liklihood
of
a visitor returning to the Top Sites list via the Top Sites link thus
advancing
the sites ranking on the list, particlarly if this is the only link that they
can
use to get off of the site. Since you sent this e-mail there have only been
8 visitors who have gone to the Top Sites page via my links. To me this
is a good thing as it shows that visitors are sticking on my site or if they
are leaving they are doing so by clicking on affiliate links that are
possibly
making me some $$$$. But this is not contributing to my ranking on the
list and I would guess given another week my site's ranking on the list
will cause it to drop off the list.

To test this idea I visited one of the other sites. Without mentioning the
site, I thought that the site was not really an "art" site and when arriving
there this was confirmed. After clicking to the first page from their home
page, there was no artwork and the only available link to leave the site
was via the Top Sites link. Now, the typical visitor being in the same
position would likely click on the banner to return to the Top Site list,
thus advancing this site's ranking. The rankings for this particular site
really has nothing to do with it's popularity as an "art" site, it is merely
based on how many people leave the site via the Top Site link. This
is why I think these types of lists are not truly indicative of a site's
quality or popularity.

However, no matter how long my site remains on this list, there are
people visiting from the Top Sites list and therefore it is a good thing
to be involved, although I would think it will be a short-lived listing.
Thanks to the little logo at the bottom my site's presence on the page
will be longer but I would think very few people notice these banners
at the bottom.

Take care,
Cam

--
===============================================
Over 200 new items added, many free or almost no cost.
Great Game and Educational program selection
http://www.PublishersPipeline.com/cgi-win/pp-a.exe/a6f0e1/

Visit our Guest Artist Gallery
http://www.imagemakers.mb.ca/guest/guest.html

Be sure to visit our on-line Art Gallery
http://www.imagemakers.mb.ca
===============================================

Hi Cam!

I think that it is premature to make any conclusions about 30 Top Art Sites community, like in the saying "we aint seen nothing yet!"
In the first three days? I was expecting a much slower, traffic and "signing" rate - most of the 30 Top Action Art Site features are not yet implemented and final outlook of the home page is "under construction". Security features like cheating control is of at the moment. However i delete non art sites instantly, so if you find one that I have overlooked email me. It the moment I am selecting the "core" of the community - sites like yours.

You made a good point saying that small sites with one link will have higher click through rate but they also have less visitors
proportionally - it makes it fare to everybody. But as i said this is only a software for me. The main purpose of the 30 Top Action Art Sites is to create a community of active sites and give them an opportunity to communicate with each other and share traffic.
Briefly if the site in the list contributes an article to the
community, I will announce it on the top of the lists homepage in an upcoming "Guest Artists" feature. This way the most active sites will have the most active promotion.

If the member does not have time making contributions - fine the
ranking software is still there and he/she can take chances to get the top position by placing more 30 Top Action Art Sites logo on more of his/her pages.

And like in every community - most active members get more exposure.

<I would think it will be a short-lived listing.>
I do not see how you came up with this conclusion, TrueFresco.com has been around for 5 years, listed on the top of every search engine and directory, at the moment has 80,000 page views per month. The TrueFresco.com is also recognized and featured by museums and universities worldwide.
30 Top Action Art Sites community is under development by the
TrueFresco.com.

Cam, Why do you think it would be a short-lived listing?

Ilia Anossov
Ilia Anossov
fresco painter, sculptor
http://www.truefresco.com
Nationwide Fresco Painting Workshop Program
http://www.truefresco.com/workshop
personal site
http://www.truefresco.com/anossov
Cafe al Fresco Art Forums
http://www.truefresco.com/cgidir/dcforum/dcboard.cgi
30 Top Action Art Sites
http://www.topsitelists.com/start/fresco
I LA Design Services
http://www.truefresco.com/ila

Hi Cam, this came after I replyed to your last post today.
I felt that I should share this.

Ilia

Subj: Thank you
Date: 3/23/01 7:54:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: ****@*****.com (Ed and Jane Rhem)
To: Strappo@a...

I just want to thank you for giving such wonderful coverage to
artists...you are very good to do this. It is very much appreciated. Your "30 Top Action Art Sites" is a great idea and seems to be catching on! I will spend some time exploring the sites! The link will soon be on Gerald's site...

Thank you again,
Jane Rhem

The Art of Gerald Steinmeier - http://www.artofgeraldsteinmeyer.com/

Posted by the admin with permission from Cam Timlick

Hi Ilia,

> I think that it is premature to make any conclusions about 30 Top Art
> Sites community, like in the saing "we aint seen nothing yet!"
> In the first three days?

Oh, I don't think I was making any conclusions about the Top Sites idea in general, just about how my site's ranking will drop. Actually I totally agree with the lady who sent you the thank you e-mail. I think you are providing a fantastic resource for artists and gallery sites.

> <I would think it will be a short-lived listing.>
> I do not see how you came up with this conclusion, TrueFresco.com has
> been around for 5 years, listed on the top of every search engine and
> directory, at the moment has 80,000 page views per month . The
> TrueFresco.com is also recognized and featured by museums and
> universities worldwide.
> 30 Top Action Art Sites community is under development by the
> TrueFresco.com.
>
> Cam, Why do you think it would be a short-lived listing?

Perhaps I wasn't making a clear distinction about what I meant in
my previous e-mail. I didn't mean that I thought the Top Sites list was going to be short-lived. I hope and do believe that it will grow and flourish. It is a great service and you are doing much to enhance it.

What I was meaning to say was that I feel "my" listing on the 30 Top Sites listing will disappear, at least from the listed 30. The reason I believe this will happen is that because the rankings are based on people leaving through the Top Sites link and I don't think most visitors to my site will have this opportunity to do so. As mentioned, I think smaller sites with few options for their visitors' exits will have a higher
potential for the visitor to leave the site via the Top Sites link. Many of my site's visitors don't even go to my main page as they have entered via a search engine link to something specific and leave after either finding what they were looking for or not. Unfortunately not all people visiting my site are of the casual surfing types that would spend a long time just browsing the store shelves. Many people on the net use it to search for specific things and often jump around from site to site. It is always a challange to keep these visitors stuck on your site for a while, not neccessarily because of
a lack of content on the site, just because of visitors' surfing habits. Our fast paced society has breed this sort of mentality and I guess there's not much we can do about it.

Take care, Cam

Hello!
I was directed to post this question to the list. So here goes!

I am confused as to why there will be a certain number of votes on a particular day, for example any day in the MIDDLE of the month, and later that day the number of votes has decreased by sometimes as much as 20 votes. This would indicate a malfunctioning script, or manual human intervention/editing.

It's almost like the server crashes and the votes are reverted to the last backup! Is there another explanation I could be missing?

Thanks!

>I am confused as to why there will be a certain
>number of votes on a particular day, for example
>any day in the MIDDLE of the month, and later
>that day the number of votes has decreased by
>sometimes as much as 20 votes. This would
>indicate a malfunctioning script, or manual
>human intervention/editing.

List resets to zero on the last day of every month. This is done to give everyone a chance to get to the top (list is over 2 years old and "old sites" would have had thousands of votes, while the new member will have to start with zero....)

List counts "votes in" not "votes out"

No changes are made to the list during the month.

>It's almost like the server crashes
>and the votes are reverted to the last backup!

This is logical and may happen, however it will not affect the ranking much - it takes seconds to restart the script and unless you have a lot of hits per hour -list "backs up" every hour, you will not notice it at all, because list also updates about every other hour. So if you had 20 hits it will not show less than that. (it is a remotely hosted script and it is said so by provider).

Sometimes member site is caught cheating. In this case we send it back to the end of the list for the first offense and if the site cheats again we delete it without warning! Fare is Fare! This is not the case with your site! You are a good member.

This is a remotely hosted script and at times the auto update does not perform as scheduled, so we also manualy update the list once a day.

So to summise things.

We do not manipulate the list.
We delete cheating sites.
Vote do not decrease during the month unles the member cheats.
We do not explain our "cheater catching" strategies. (it would be stupid, would it?)

Oh, thanks.