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12-Oct-00, 02:04 AM (PST)
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"Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your art marketing questions here!"
 
In this discussion thread Geoffrey Gorman will answer your art marketing questions. You are also welcome to share your own art marketing experience and advice.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your ... [View All] adminadmin 12-Oct-00 TOP
  RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post y... geoffreygorman 12-Oct-00 1
     Who legally owns the client's name and address? Iliamoderator 17-Oct-00 5
         RE: Who legally owns the client's name and address? geoffreygorman 18-Oct-00 6
     RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post y... fortyponies 18-Oct-00 8
         RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post y... geoffreygorman 24-Oct-00 9
             RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post y... geoffreygorman 26-Oct-00 10
     RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post y... Serena 23-Nov-00 11
         RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post y... geoffreygorman 24-Nov-00 12
  RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post y... Gary sculptari 16-Oct-00 4
     RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post y... geoffreygorman 18-Oct-00 7
         RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman Cyndij 18-Sep-03 22
  Artist, Internet, Promotion Iliamoderator 27-Nov-00 13
     RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion geoffreygorman 27-Nov-00 14
         RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion Iliamoderator 28-Nov-00 15
             RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion geoffreygorman 03-Dec-00 16
                 RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion Iliamoderator 04-Dec-00 17
                     RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion geoffreygorman 06-Dec-00 18
                         RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion Iliamoderator 06-Dec-00 19
                             RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion Zarade 12-Apr-02 20
                                 RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion Iliamoderator 13-Apr-02 21
         Gallery Commissions Sophiecressall 08-Mar-04 23

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geoffreygorman
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12-Oct-00, 08:42 AM (PST)
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1. "RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your art marketing questions here!"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON 12-Oct-00 AT 08:42 AM (GMT)

Here is an interesting question: When a gallery makes a sale of your artwork to a client, who legally owns the client's name and address?

Geoffrey


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Iliamoderator
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5. "Who legally owns the client's name and address?"
In response to message #1
 
My logic tells me that it should be the gallery, since the gallery organized the show, invited the buyer and closed the sale. But I think artist has a right know where his work will be, so he/she also entitled to have the address of the buyer.

Am I right?


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geoffreygorman
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18-Oct-00, 08:24 AM (PST)
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6. "RE: Who legally owns the client's name and address?"
In response to message #5
 
   Good answer! You got most of it correct. I want artists to know that they do own the name and address of the collector along with the gallery that made the sale. But just because you and I know this, it does not mean that a gallery will give you that information. Many of them will not release the name and address of the collector so try to find out each galleries poliicy on this thorny questions before you start working with them.


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fortyponies
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8. "RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your art marketing questions here!"
In response to message #1
 
   If the artist's contract with the gallery is non-exclusive, wouldn't the name and address of the art buyer be public domain?
Lynn Greaves
online gallery | http://www.fortyponies.com


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geoffreygorman
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24-Oct-00, 07:57 AM (PST)
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9. "RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your art marketing questions here!"
In response to message #8
 
   I have asked several lawyers for the answer to your situation. Nobody seems to know the legal answer. Once I get a definite answer I will post it here.

Geoffrey


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geoffreygorman
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26-Oct-00, 04:37 AM (PST)
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10. "RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your art marketing questions here!"
In response to message #9
 
   Hi Lynn,

You are right!

Geoffrey


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Serena
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23-Nov-00, 08:07 PM (PST)
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11. "RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your art marketing questions here!"
In response to message #1
 
  

In Oregon we have a law stating that any gallery or shop selling consigned work has to release the identity of the buyer if the sale is over 100.00 I don't know if other states might have similar laws.


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geoffreygorman
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24-Nov-00, 07:22 AM (PST)
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12. "RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your art marketing questions here!"
In response to message #11
 
   Hi Serena,

My understanding is this: unless you have a written contract with a gallery that has your work on consignment stating otherwise, both you and the gallery own the name and address of the buyer.

Just because this is the law, it does not make it something that galleries want to agree to. Many galleries will not give the artist the name and address of the purchaser, so be very careful when you are getting into a gallery arrangement about this important detail.


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Gary sculptari
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4. "RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your art marketing questions here!"
In response to message #0
 
   Hello Geoffrey!
I think I have a real tough one for you - I hope you don't mind. I am fairly recent to fresco, I am mainly a sculptor, and plasterer. I have mastered many of the nearly lost renaissance techniques - most notably "stucco duro", which is a modeling putty made from plaster/lime putty/ marble dust and about ten other "secret" ingredients. It is seen throughout Europe, and was often painted and gilded. The plaster decoration of a room was carried out by the "stuccotari", who were a combination sculptor/interior designer/ master artisan. During the renaissance they were more higly prized than the stone workers and painters. Michelangelo, Donatello and Raphael were all admirers and masters of the technique. The new world was built with molded,mass produced plaster, by 1900 the new world craftsmen, using poor copies of European ornament, were cranking out catalogs full of product and this is how much of Canada and the U.S. was built. The old skills were never used here (exception is Spanish Colonial churches in Mexico) and they began to die out in Europe - the last practioners died out in the 1920's. Ornamental plaster and even fresco, became synonomous with over decorated and fussy decor.

Now - to YOU!
I am interested in putting together a revival of the olde world plaster skills which includes buen fresco, but also scagliola (beautiful imitation marble), sgraffito (scratched plaster color work - very beautiful), stucco duro as mentioned and ornamental fibrous plaster modeled in place. A team would work on NEW buildings which have been able to combine art & architecture, as many of the old buildings were done but with NEW artistic vision. Today, architects are expected to design the ornament and the contractor is to carefully implement that design. Less than 100 years ago this was not the case. Architects were more concerned with bricks and mortar issues, and the contractors were more artists and artisans.

What I am proposing is to approach architects and public zoning councils with the idea that the monies that are currently earmarked for on site public art, be allowed to used for architectural art on the actual building. Examples include and interior/exterior fresco panels, sculpted panels, custom architectural artworks. These works must have artistic integrity and do not include mass produced castings or low skill level faux finishes - these are the real deal, equal in quality and appearance to the exquisite beauty of the European, Asian and Mediterranean pieces. They have, however, been updated with contemporary or localized themes. At the present time, the councils often insist that 1% of the total project cost be spent on public art, and because the developers and architect are partially or totally excluded from the selection process, the work is often marginalised into a bland fountain or an unimportant wall. By allowing this budget to be used for architectural art, this changes everything. The artist must be closely involved with the builders and architect. To further enhance the proposal, in my renaissance artisan approach, after approved for work we would also conduct on site workshops for local artists, students and the interested public.

So my question is (finally, he sighs): What advice can you offer at this stage which will help us develop a solid business plan? We are talking about a revolution in Art and Architecture, an "arts & crafts revival" for the upcoming century - we have the manifesto, now we need the strategic plan. , Do we work on architects or councils? How do you get free publicity?


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geoffreygorman
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18-Oct-00, 08:54 AM (PST)
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7. "RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman - Questions and Answers. Post your art marketing questions here!"
In response to message #4
 
   You certainly have given me a great "mini" history on fresco painting. You should consider writing and getting published articles on this subject. A great way to get a wider audience for what you are trying to achieve.

I think that you will have a hard time getting 1% money to pay for your fresco art team. But research what the money has been spent on in the past to see if 'teams' are ever hired for public projects, you never know. (Try giving your team an artsy name and maybe that will work.)

What about going after developers, builders, and architects that have big bucks for their projects? If you can get a few of them as clients you could be on your way.

As far as gaining publicity goes, you need three things: an exciting event to publicise, a good press release, and effective media contacts. All of this takes work to put together, but there are lots of sites on the Internet that can help you with publicity.

Good luck with your idea!

Geofffrey


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Cyndij
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18-Sep-03, 10:07 AM (PST)
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22. "RE: Ask Geoffrey Gorman"
In response to message #7
 
   Hi Geoffrey,

As an addition to your answer to Gary Sculptari on working with architects or councilsfor his fresco project on new buildings, he should refer to Dodge Reports. It is an architectural digest that lists upcoming projects. It has been my experience (as an art marketing consultant) that architects or their viewing committees are very receptive to ideas such as Gary's.

But, Gary should remember that the 1% - 3% for art programs in place in certain cities, often causes a rebellion by the taxpayers that results in fewer individual sales for artists in those cities. Perhaps, he could find corporations already involved in the arts willing to fund his project for the tax benefit they would receive,instead of laying it at the feet of the taxpayer.

Gallerist, Art Struck Gallery, Blue Ridge, GA, Former Faculty Member - Atlanta College of Art and author of Art Gallery Safari: Bagging the Big One.

http://www.artstruck.net


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Iliamoderator
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27-Nov-00, 01:59 AM (PST)
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13. "Artist, Internet, Promotion"
In response to message #0
 
Hi Geoffrey!

Here is the question that has been bothering me for a while:

When the artist joins the online gallery or forums or mailing list part of the intention is to promote his/her art work - this is clear. The "foggy" subjects is what are the odds?

Lets say the "mega-artsite" like iTeo or Guild for example has lots of visitors and supposedly buyers, but also a lot of artists. I have a friend who has a few pages at the iTeo and in four month he had no visitors (he does not do anything to bring people there himself, though). I also placed one of my frescoes on some mega-site about 3 years ago and had two visitors and only because there were curious enough to search the site for frescoes and I was the only artist (out of 30,000) that had a fresco.

On the other hand there are personal artists galleries with links pages and all sorts of 100/50/150 Top Art Sites lists.
Modern Fresco Gallery link on a few of them and, for example "Olga's Gallery" - great museum quality site on Classic painters (mostly 19th cent and earlier) sends to www.truefresco.com about 50 people per week, or a link on a friends page gets a few people each day.

OK, to the option one (mega sites) buyers go "supposedly"
To the option two - artists, students and just curious people.

Now the question:
1. Does this traffic/exposure to non-buyers on the small site benefits artist more then a chance to "run into a buyer" on the mega-site?
2. Will the joining and exhibiting on the new/forming site, another words investing your time and effort, give the artist more useful exposure then going to where the bigger "crowd" is?

I know that in the "Brick and Mortar" gallery (I owned two at the same time, once) it is better to have one buyer than a hundred "just looking", but what are the odds on of finding a collector in the crowd of (hypothetically) 30000 of website "lookers" or to be found by a collector in the crowd of (hypothetically) 30000 artists?

Ilia Anossov
http://www.truefresco.com/anossov


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geoffreygorman
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27-Nov-00, 05:09 PM (PST)
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14. "RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion"
In response to message #13
 
   I think, Ilea, that you bring up an interesting point about conducting any type of business on the Internet, whether it is art sales or boat sales, and that is connecting with the buyer who comes to the site.

I am believing more and more that the Internet is the HARDEST way to make money. And money is what artists are hoping to generate from having their work on a web site or web gallery. I am not hearing about artists finding clients virtually, I am hearing about artists sending their existing clients to their sites or galleries and making the sales that way.

Have you noticed how hard it is to engage someone that you don't know who comes to your site? It is very hard! I think most visitors on the Internet are expecting information for free. The Internet should be used as a broshure or extensive catalog for the artists to send their clients to...and that is all.

Geoffrey


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Iliamoderator
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15. "RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion"
In response to message #14
 
Hi Geoffrey! I would agree on the point that Internet for the artist is mostly an interactive catalog for the exhisting clients and unless it is taken to the next step it would remain as another copy of the artist's portfolio. Ironically not the best one - high resolution professional photographs in leather folder look way more presentable.

Now about the "next step". We live in the overpopulated world overpopulated and busy, prices are not going down and since stock market does well dont expect them to plunge in the future.
Things like Impressionists and Salon, or Russian "Peredvizniki", or Cafe "Parnas" do not seem to happen anymore. Artist is no longer able to pop out the studio and bingo! cafe filled with creative colleagues, Castelly does not scout the studios in search for the new talent anymore. And with the invent of modern art - there are also way too many artists and styles.

So what did we, artists, get in exchange for all of those gooddies of the past - cheap computers and the Internet.
Not too much, but that is all we got so lets use it.

Geoffrey, any advise?


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geoffreygorman
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03-Dec-00, 03:21 PM (PST)
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16. "RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion"
In response to message #15
 
   I believe that for most artists there are more opportunities out there than there is time to respond to all of them! Of course I am assuming that the art being created has a broad market potential...and you, the artist, have to do your own market research to be able to answer that question, right?

Things to consider when making short and long term goals for getting your work out there on a regular basis include: studio shows, juried and invitational shows, group shows, art fairs, internet shows, galleries, museums, non-profit spaces, art consultants, interior designers, architects, framers, publishers, multiple prints, posters, cards, calendars, offering workshops, writing about your specialty, etc...

A big challenge for each artist is to figure out which marketing strategy is the most productive one. I can help artists in that area.

Geoffrey


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Iliamoderator
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04-Dec-00, 11:57 AM (PST)
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17. "RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion"
In response to message #16
 
Hi Geoffrey!

I noticed that most of the artists, including myself have a problem figuring out where and how to start.
The scariest thing is how much proper marketing is going to cost?
Obviously "spot marketing" - doing little bits here or there when it is affordable - sort of an "amateur mode", will produce little or no results and at times can even work against the artist. Professional help from the specialist like yourself is a necessity not a luxury.
However if the artist can deal with the marketing advisor fees - ask how much is the fee and go. The expenses associated with all of the necessary things, that you listed above, are a big mystery. Art marketing manuals, that I have read, do not give even "raw" number of how much the artist should plan to spend on marketing.
This is an important question because if you have enough money to print invitations per say, but not sure that you can pay for stamps in time for the show - what is the point of printing?
Another thing - my friend an established muralist says that every copy of his portfolio cost him $50 not counting the time for assembling. To assemble the original portfolio he invested over $2000. Forget the stamps...

It is obvious that artist should plan his marketing 1-2 years in advance. At this moment professional help is crucial - to check on the artist if he/she follows the plan and help adapting to always changing art market.

My question is "How much money should be budgeted for a successful campain?
How much artist should plan to spend?
I understand that the one could not buy success or talent, but what is the point of buying "fancy seats" when one needs the whole "car"?

>Things to consider when making short
>and long term goals for
>getting your work out there
>on a regular basis include:
>studio shows, juried and invitational
>shows, group shows, art fairs,
>internet shows, galleries, museums, non-profit
>spaces, art consultants, interior designers,
>architects, framers, publishers, multiple prints,
>posters, cards, calendars, offering workshops,
>writing about your specialty, etc...
>
>
>A big challenge for each artist
>is to figure out which
>marketing strategy is the most
>productive one. I can help
>artists in that area.

What number will all of those things will add up to?

Lets say like with the car purchase one knows the total and all is needed is to work out and follow the payment plan.

Please, scare us! "To fight this evil - one must face it!" - by me


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geoffreygorman
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06-Dec-00, 09:13 AM (PST)
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18. "RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion"
In response to message #17
 
   To answer your question of how much money and how much time you need to commit to, take some time and look at other small businesses...You are a small business owner, right? Get some books on marketing and putting together a budjet. Often these books have a formula to use based on income. Take a class in small business management. Call SCORE for advice.

You should figure out a yearly ammount that you will spend on advertising, direct mail, promotions(portfolio, office costs, travel, etc. Once you have a figure to work with give it a try and see how realistic it is.

One thing that frustrates me about artists is the thinking that they are so unique in what they do that no one else has ever had to figure out some of these problems. Artists are not unique, they are gifted with creativity. But they should be able to look at the big business picture and find similar businesses to design their own models on. Do you get my point?

Geoffrey


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Iliamoderator
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06-Dec-00, 11:36 AM (PST)
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19. "RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion"
In response to message #18
 
LAST EDITED ON 06-Dec-00 AT 11:56 AM (PST)

I think I am getting the point. I maybe not composing my question clearly.

For example I am commissioned to paint a mural - at first, client wants me to produce a proposal - concept sketch, price, timeline, etc. After that client makes a decision if he/she can afford it.
I had a few situations when I have went to the appointment just to learn that potential client had no idea of what it takes and may cost, but I already spent time on putting the proposal together and this is not free. I charge for concept development "on the spot".
And that what, in turn, frustrates me - people think that artists have to be satisfied with just the attention and do all the work free or close to free.
So now I ask the new client on the phone "Are you ready to invest over $..... into your mural?" It may sound rude, but believe me it is less insulting than to give the person, face to face, the price he/she can not pay and bill for my time spent during the appointment.

Another "illustration" - when I teach painting class, at first I paint together with students, correcting their work and teaching them to "see" the form and composition, working from the drawing and imagination and not yet from the model. (drawing is done from the model and ajusted from imagination/memory)

Basically this method is showing them what they will have to spend (time wise) and this is a lot in short period of time (they dont have to try to make an exact copy and I also take the brush when the student is "stuck"), but I also show them that it can be done "at ease".
Only after that, and if they are ready for the commitment, I let them "transport" the object of painting or work from nature. I did not have anyone say "This is too much for me!" and usually student commits to more lessons he/she planned to take at the beginning. I can send them to books, but what I have found - "Most of the time they do not know how to read or understand them." often thinking - "This is complicated and time consuming, I should wait with it" or the worst is "This is too much - I will skip this, and that, and that too - I just want to paint and have fun!" They do it and fail and another stuck of art supplies is carefully packed in the closet.

Last example - Five years ago I was looking for someone to build me a website. I called a few web-design companies and asked them how much it will cost. I got the answer $50 per hour. I asked - "OK. How many hours will it take?" "We do not know", was the reply, it depends on what kind of the web site, how many pages, etc., etc., Very confusing - How the hell would I know? What kind of the site will bring the result? How my site should look to satisfy my expectations?
I rephrased the question. It looked like that "I am an artist and need a website that would be functional, interactive, with potential to grow into the community, also the subject of the website is unique - fresco and since there are no other sites on this subject, whatever we create should have the potential to become an educational outpost. How much my budget should be to engage your company?" I started to get real numbers all of them were in $25,000 - $75,000 range. (the whole shopping thing took me 2 hours)
I could not afford that but that put a value on my plan, so I went and hired web-designer to teach me HTML and other web building skills. The rest is history.

Back to you, Geoffrey

This how I see the model of artist - art advisor relationship.
Artist question: How much will my "complete marketing" (brand name it) campaign cost as a minimum? Suppose I do all the work?
Art advisor: One million! Realistically, you will need $...... to cover all the bases. I can help you with targeting your campaign, coaching, etc. We can start with professionally set up "initial" plan that you must complete before we can start on the campaign, this plan will also include the general budget for (visual, performing, other artist (select one). The "initial" plan fee is $...

Artist needs to be told how much? what? when? in which order?
Like in "art technique book" scratch coat + rough coat + brown coat + float (arriccio) coat + sinopia + skim (intonaco)+ underpainting + tone values and shadows + colour + detail = fresco is painted - we used to it. Our mind is more receptive this way.

Good decorative painting and faux-finish books have everything from step by step techniques to material vendors listings and sample business records, pricing tables, sample contract, marketing strategies, etc.

Why fine art marketing should be different?

Check out this one "Professional Painted Finishes" by Marx (not Karl) Whitney Library of Design, Watson-Guptill Publications, New York 1991 $60

>You should figure out a yearly
>ammount that you will spend
>on advertising, direct mail, promotions(portfolio,
>office costs, travel, etc. Once
>you have a figure to
>work with give it a
>try and see how realistic it is.

This is exactly what I and most of the artists that I know are needed to be told/answered - you need to spend $..... anythig less - You are wasting your time! And you can give us this answer, Geoffrey - you have experience and knowledge of other artist's career expenses.
I can try to find it myself, but it would be like going to car dealership for the car, asking "how much is this one?" and be sent to engineering school to find out on your own how much the car will amount to. Or telling my client - "take my fresco workshop and then make me an offer?".

I hope I did not say anything stupid! If I did, please forgive me.

Ilia


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Zarade
Charter Member
4 posts, Rate this user
12-Apr-02, 08:39 PM (PST)
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20. "RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion"
In response to message #19
 
Hi,
This is my first posting, I am so glad to have found this lovely site! Very nice.
I have been doing Fine Arts & Editorial Illustration for many years. Now I have just graduated from Gibbs College in Visual Communications, Graphic Design.
I have several sites and a new promo card I am in the process of mailing out.
When I look at Ilia's accomplishments, I am in awe.
Ilia, you really are 'out there' really doing it.
I have been stuck with lack of contacts and that is my week point.
I can do anything and everything. I have the skills, the schooling, the inspiration 'juice' flowing at all times. All I need is the right door to open, and to know where to find it.
Practical suggestions from anyone?
Thank you.

Mariella Pace
Apace Studio
www.creativehotlist.com/apacestudio

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http://www.truefresco.com/dcforum/User_files/3cb7a8035b3f858d.jpg

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Iliamoderator
Charter Member
339 posts, Rate this user
13-Apr-02, 11:32 AM (PST)
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21. "RE: Artist, Internet, Promotion"
In response to message #20
 

>Ilia, you really are 'out there' really doing
>it.
>I have been stuck with lack of contacts and that
>is my week point.
>I can do anything and everything. I have the
>skills, the schooling, the inspiration 'juice'
>flowing at all times. All I need is the right
>door to open, and to know where to find it.
>Practical suggestions from anyone?
>Thank you.

Hi Mariella,

What you need to do (it worked for me) is to select an area within the art industry you feel comfortable with and target/tailor your promo to that area. You have to be persistent and patient - it may take years.

In no way I am suggesting to limit your creativity, just the marketing efforts.

ilia

http://www.FrescoSchool.com


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Sophiecressall
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08-Mar-04, 10:15 AM (PST)
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23. "Gallery Commissions"
In response to message #14
 
   Hello Geoffrey,
I have recently taken on the job as gallery manager and have a question in the commission dept.
If a client buys a piece in installments does the artist recieve commission everytime an installment is made or at the close of the sale?
My next question is, if a piece is bought in installments how does the gallery cover itself leagally to prevent a client pulling out of the sale?


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