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Subject: "Tracking references"

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sford
Member since 21-Apr-04
4 posts

21-Apr-04, 12:35 PM (PST)

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"Tracking references"

Do the truefresco site developers read this forum? I did some searches in the forums and didn't find any conferences that talk about this subject.

I hate to be a fuddie-duddie, but I don't appreciate the feature that lists the referring pages. I for one have a private page where I link to other pages. And while I don't object to the site maintainers having a look at it, I don't necessarily want it to be made public. The next time a search engine scans your page, my bookmarks page suddenly becomes available to anybody world-wide.

As it turns out, I keep my bomb-making links elsewhere, so I don't have to worry about the FBI. (That's a joke, btw.) But there might be other links in there that I would find embarassing, especially if seen by my boss or children. So now I have to go through it line-by-line and sanitize it (now done). Hopefully google's cache will get flushed out after a while.

I know you claim that no personal information is collected. However, it is reasonable to assume that your readers might have their own "links" page that they use, and making that page public certainly discloses their reading habits (not only within your site, but across the entire web). Maybe you could claim that it would be difficult to correlate a person's link page with their account, or maybe you could claim that you only keep their account info private. Either way, I believe you are violating the spirit of a reasonable privacy policy.

I see that the tracking data data is sent to some random IP address: 216.55.133.99.

Traceroute ends with: the actual info below is changed by admin - you want it find it on your own or write to us we will respond - it is our site (house) we can do here what we believe is rightas long as it is legal!

>
>I see that the tracking data data is sent to
>some random IP address: 216.xxxxx.99.
>
>Traceroute ends with:
>
>9 so-8-0.hsa1.rtgfgf.Lfghl3.net
>(4.68.112.130)
>10 Aplus-hellow dolly.net (209.66565.6565)
>11 core01.dfhgkjjk.net (454.63143.644)
>12 216-55-133-99.holup.personal.net
>(xxx.xxx.xxx)
>
>That does not appear to be related to
>truefresco.com, whose traceroute ends with:
>
>14 edtnabxldr01.fhfhf.com (20747453534..105)
>15 209.115.218.218 (20977375402.)
>16 cfgh0fdgh.edm.fgd.com
>(75557.ghgh.22)
>17 ip-7527.tera7527.com (7575.dfg228)

Do you own/operate that server? Is it owned/operated by Extreme Tracking? By offering this as a large-scale service to many different web sites, the owner/operator of 216.xxxxxx.99 will have access to an awful lot of information, much of which could be mined to determine people's browsing habits. And it is entirely possible that the IP address of the end user (me) is recorded along with my referring page.

Finally, as anybody can see by looking at the bottom of your own page http://www.truefresco.org/referrers.htm, it is very easy to hack the system and fill it with spam links.

Why in the world would an art-oriented site host a service like this???

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Subject	Author	Message Date	ID
RE: Tracking references	admin	21-Apr-04	1
RE: Tracking references	sford	21-Apr-04	2
RE: Tracking references	sford	21-Apr-04	3
RE: Tracking references	sford	21-Apr-04	4
RE: Tracking references	admin	21-Apr-04	5
RE: Tracking references	admin	21-Apr-04	6

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admin

Charter Member
286 posts, 4 feedbacks, 6 points

21-Apr-04, 01:29 PM (PST)

1. "RE: Tracking references"
In response to message #0

First of all you have confused two things (services) -
our referrers and the one that has nothing to do with us - we just using it ExtremeTracking. that has been around for more than 10 years...

in fact, our referrers are fed throug jave and search engines do not see the list...
"extreme tracking" put its output in html so we can view the stats and perhaps we will encode access to it into java, but for the reasons different than protecting your "bomb-links" from being discovered - that is your respocibility!

>Do the truefresco site developers read this
>forum? I did some searches in the forums and
>didn't find any conferences that talk about this
>subject.
>

There is NO need to talk about this "subject" - as you pointed out we are artists running art oriented website
not software developers, therefore what there is to talk about? It is plain simple - do "you" want to know whom to say Thank You for helping "you" to have "your" art seen without paing arm-and-a-leg for server costs and advertising? use our free service... we will pickup the tab... or do not use... it is upto the individual we do not force you to do it!

>I hate to be a fuddie-duddie, but I don't
>appreciate the feature that lists the referring
>pages. I for one have a private page where I
>link to other pages. And while I don't object to
>the site maintainers having a look at it, I
>don't necessarily want it to be made public. The
>next time a search engine scans your page, my
>bookmarks page suddenly becomes available to
>anybody world-wide.

The description of the service clearly states in plain English:
"To list referrers to your site all you need to do is to copy/paste a single line of JavaScript code (below) within the page you want to track.
You can place this code on as many pages as you wish - it will produce custom referrers list specific to that page - referrers will inherit colors and font type from the defaults of your page!"

so if you do not want a certain page seen - hide it! we can not do it for you look for how-to in references to .htacces - you can specify to deny acces to any page you want there or password-protect it, or simply put robot.txt file on your site instracting robot not to visit that page "they SE robots will "listen" this is why it exists (robot.txt)

>
>As it turns out, I keep my bomb-making links
>elsewhere, so I don't have to worry about the
>FBI. (That's a joke, btw.) But there might be
>other links in there that I would find
>embarassing, especially if seen by my boss or
>children. So now I have to go through it
>line-by-line and sanitize it (now done).
>Hopefully google's cache will get flushed out
>after a while.

just as i wrote above - password-protect it use robot.txt or .htaccess.

It is funny that you are complaining to us that you have something to hide!!! Internet is a public domain - you want to keep something hidden do what the definition of the word "hidden" suggests - HIDE IT!

>
>I know you claim that no personal information is
>collected. However, it is reasonable to assume
>that your readers might have their own "links"
>page that they use, and making that page public
>certainly discloses their reading habits (not
>only within your site, but across the entire
>web).

>Maybe you could claim that it would be
>difficult to correlate a person's link page with
>their account, or maybe you could claim that you
>only keep their account info private. Either
>way, I believe you are violating the spirit of a
>reasonable privacy policy.

We do not keep any accounts for referrers and no personal info! None Zero! Zilch! You perhaps need to read in the "personal info" definition.
All we do is host the record of referring page to user page, pay for bandwidth, and making sure there is enough CPU on the server to provide something that over 20,000 people want (you are the first complainer)

>
>I see that the tracking data data is sent to
>some random IP address: 216.55.133.99.
>
>Traceroute ends with:
>
>9 so-8-0.hsa1.rtgfgf.Lfghl3.net
>(4.68.112.130)
>10 Aplus-hellow dolly.net (209.66565.6565)
>11 core01.dfhgkjjk.net (454.63143.644)
>12 216-55-133-99.holup.personal.net
>(xxx.xxx.xxx)
>
>That does not appear to be related to
>truefresco.com, whose traceroute ends with:
>
>14 edtnabxldr01.fhfhf.com (20747453534..105)
>15 209.115.218.218 (20977375402.)
>16 cfgh0fdgh.edm.fgd.com
>(75557.ghgh.22)
>17 ip-7527.tera7527.com (7575.dfg228)

The above is the info that can be concedered "personal info" because it relates to a particular individual and names are called and the named entities did not authorise to post it! However this info is in Public Domain - the only reason you've got it, so posting it without authorization is a moral issue.

>Do you own/operate that server? Is it
>owned/operated by Extreme Tracking? By offering
>this as a large-scale service to many different
>web sites, the owner/operator of 216.55.133.99
>will have access to an awful lot of information,
>much of which could be mined to determine
>people's browsing habits. And it is entirely
>possible that the IP address of the end user
>(me) is recorded along with my referring page.

How do you think Spam control software operates?
It records spam patterns and ip's associated with it and based on that info stops spam.
Did they ask me or you about the right to compare our email/ip/host with their database? ... ah, so i tought.
It is PUBLIC Domain.

>Finally, as anybody can see by looking at the
>bottom of your own page
>http://www.truefresco.org/referrers.htm, it is
>very easy to hack the system and fill it with
>spam links.

This will be our problem to solve, but thank you for concern... as of for the user remove the referrers java code from the page and it is GONE.

>Why in the world would an art-oriented site host
>a service like this???

You found our site, didn't you? So as thousands of others... As well as thousands of users got millions of visitors to their pages without thousands of dollars in advertising.

Or you will suggest to pay to advertizing companies to research YOUR browsing habbits to deliver our Art Ad?

In fact referrer script does not research anything - it records active links that point to user page - no link - no record - a simple link exchange
Don't you think that Artists better spend their "tear-calling" ressources on creating ART?

learn fresco at http://FrescoSchool.org

fresco painting video tutorials: http://www.FrescoSchool.com

also visit

Fresco School Video Channel
http://youtube.com/FrescoSchool

Contemporary Fresco Gazette
http://trueFresco.Org
commission fresco or mural http://iLAdesigns.com

admin
____________________________
Contemporary Fresco Painting Resouce Center
http://TrueFresco.com

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sford
Member since 21-Apr-04
4 posts

21-Apr-04, 04:39 PM (PST)

2. "RE: Tracking references"
In response to message #1

Hi again. Thanks for the quick reply. You make some good points. I don't mean to complain too much - I think your site is wonderful.

By the way, there were several instances of your data server's IP address that you didn't obscure. If you don't want it readily available, you might want to search and obscure them. (And thank you for inserting a warning that you were doing so. I respect you for that.)

I'm not sure if search engines execute javascript functions when they crawl the web. I know the technology exists to do it (I know a company that does something similar). But you also bring up the good point that robot.txt or .htaccess can be used to hide access to my links page. And for that matter, if I am too paranoid, I can turn off javascript in my browser.

>The description of the service clearly states in
>plain English: ...

Ah, but it *doesn't* state in plain English that you keep copies of those transactions on your server. The reason I came to truefresco is that a different site uses your service. The webmaster of that site didn't know that you have access to every targetPage/referPage/userIP that comes along, and that you store some or all of that information on your server. Your description makes it seem like its all being done in javascript. I'm a programmer (not an artist), so I knew that it had to be stored on a central server somewhere.

I would like to see you add to your description that:
1. you store targetPage/referPage pairs on your server
2. this information is erased after 5 days
3. the visitor's IP address is not stored
4. the information is not provided by you to third parties.

To clarify that last point - if I use your service, then obviously my own web page provides the usage information to my own visitors. But the information it provides is restricted to that page. Only people who know my page's address can see the access information. Thus, I control who has access to my page's usage information by controlling who knows about my page. Point 4 means that you promise not to give your database to anybody else.

By including the above information, the webmasters who want your service will better understand what they are agreeing to. If you *don't* make those statements, then I believe that many of your "customers" will be fooled, and I can disapprove of that.

Obviously you can only make those statements if ET (Extreme Tracking) doesn't have access to the data. Did ET supply the code? Did they give you any policy statements about the data it collects? You implied that it does not store IP addresses. Did ET actually say that they don't? It's risky to assume that if they don't mention anything about IP addresses.

>All we do is host the record of referring page
>to user page, pay for bandwidth, and making sure
>there is enough CPU on the server to provide
>something that over 20,000 people want (you are
>the first complainer)

It's funny ... when I first saw the list of referring pages, I thought "Oh Cool!" Then when I saw my own links page, I thought "Ah, unexpected consequences."

Perhaps I was the first to recognize that it stores the information on your server. I wouldn't expect non-programmers to realize it. Even I didn't realize it until I had thought about it for a while.

---

I guess the real reason I'm complaining is the feeling I got when I saw my links page displayed to the world. I've always known that my browser supplies the referring page when I access a web site. I know that the web sites I visit collect information like my IP address, my usage patterns, etc. I only spend time at sites that I feel reasonably confident will use that information wisely.

But when I brought up that site's page and saw my links page displayed ... I felt like the site was abusing my trust. I gave them the information assuming it would be kept private, and there it was for the whole world to see. No, I don't have anything on that page that is vital to keep private. I wouldn't keep critically secret information on my web site. But I still felt slightly violated.

So my complaint is *really* with the web site I first visited. I registered my complaint there, and the service is already taken down. My only complaint to you is that your description does not really tell web masters what *they* need to know to decide.

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sford
Member since 21-Apr-04
4 posts

21-Apr-04, 04:45 PM (PST)

3. "RE: Tracking references"
In response to message #1

P.S. - I tried to edit my original post to remove your server's IP address, but I was too late. It also appears a couple of times in your reply.

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sford
Member since 21-Apr-04
4 posts

21-Apr-04, 06:23 PM (PST)

4. "RE: Tracking references"
In response to message #1

>We do not keep any accounts for referrers and no
>personal info! None Zero! Zilch! You perhaps
>need to read in the "personal info" definition.

You are right that it depends on the definition of "personal info". Here's a sample:

http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=phonefre

time, date, ip address, kind of browser, operating system. Are any of those personal?

Since ET has this data for many many many web sites, they can start to cross-correlate by IP address to build a profile of the user at that IP address.

Collect enough info and you can correlate IP address to name, address, phone, e-mail, etc. Then you can construct a model of me based on my buying habits, entertainment choices, probable sexual orientation, etc.

I'm sure *you* don't do that. You're an artist for goodness sake! But the "Extreme Tracking" company may not be so trustworthy. If they have access to the data your server collects, then you are helping them.

Anyway, I've complained enough. Just put a bit more information on your page, ok? And continue your good work with your artists.

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admin

Charter Member
286 posts, 4 feedbacks, 6 points

21-Apr-04, 09:57 PM (PST)

5. "RE: Tracking references"
In response to message #4

>But when I brought up that site's page and saw my links >page displayed ... I felt like the site was abusing my >trust. I gave them the information assuming it would be >kept private...

Lets start here - You (or any other user) did not give any information, but took the convinience and free tool for whatever reason we do not know nor interested to...

There should be a line between exceess and reason:
if anyone would ask for your SS#, Bank Account#, Medical History in exchange for the "widget" and publish it on the Internet without your approval - yes, it is a violation!
but if you, yourself, take info that is accessible to anyone and being stored, recorded, published by millions of methods and publish it on YOUR SITE by the means of our service "piggibacking on our bandwidth and storage capacities"... come on give me a brake... It's like telling yahoo that they are responcible for all the content of geocities.com just because its built through yahoo's interface! Do you realise that we do not do anything to create your link pages? You are and visitors to the site are the publishers. And also the only data that is stored and transmitted for free is the data that your browser provides and instead of trying to instruct us on how to live
you should instruct browser makers not to display the info or provide a switch to disable it - what a hek - go for the source!

>The reason I came to truefresco is that a different site >uses your service. The webmaster of that site didn't know >that you have access to every targetPage/referPage/userIP >that comes along, and that you store some or all of that >information on your server.

this is not entirely correct - script reads info from HTTP_REFERRER and if there is a URL it will not see/use IP, it can be done of cause but the point is that recearching of yor browsing habits by marketing or scientific organisations, like everything else has two sides the overlooked one is - reducing the ammount of unrelated crap you get in your mailbox and selling you goods that you might need. Of cause verything can be perverted or abused...
or used wrongly, but this is life and you make your own choices "to use or not to use".

by the way "What a hell of a webmaster..." what did he think the link list appears out of a thin air?

Please do not take the cups as rudeness, just repeating myself for the third time:

WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH and NOT AFFILIATED IN ANY WAY with ExtremeTracking! we just use their Free service that they host on THEIR SERVERS. and perhaps they collect (have collected last 7 years)gigabytes of logs about our site and me personaly down to the color of my underwear I Do Not Care! In fact it is red-white-and-blue (russian flag)

anyway enough of rederic, I understand that you "got caught by surprize" and your secret page leaked out in a way you could not think of - you should thank us - now you know how insecure your secret page is and we "told you" about it immedeately... so fix it, the others wont and we sit and wonder where is all that junk in the mail box coming from?
It is from the "others" that will go to any lenght to hide your "security holes" from you.

PS
> time, date, ip address, kind of browser, operating
> system. Are any of those personal?

only if those are legaly owned by someone, then it would make it personal. I kinda doubt that anyone can "own time"
or the date or even the IP... not yet...

learn fresco at http://FrescoSchool.org

fresco painting video tutorials: http://www.FrescoSchool.com

also visit

Fresco School Video Channel
http://youtube.com/FrescoSchool

Contemporary Fresco Gazette
http://trueFresco.Org
commission fresco or mural http://iLAdesigns.com

admin
____________________________
Contemporary Fresco Painting Resouce Center
http://TrueFresco.com

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admin

Charter Member
286 posts, 4 feedbacks, 6 points

21-Apr-04, 10:53 PM (PST)

6. "RE: Tracking references"
In response to message #5

pretty silly:

the info that is used/read and displayed by the script relates to The Web Page URL ONLY not users/visitors.

page A has a link to page B - that is it!

Page A likes Page B -> Page B likes Page A

so we are back to the original line:

"Script does not collect any personal data..."

i can only add/change it to "Script does not collect any personal data... whatsoever" unless you feel that URL is a person...

learn fresco at http://FrescoSchool.org

fresco painting video tutorials: http://www.FrescoSchool.com

also visit

Fresco School Video Channel
http://youtube.com/FrescoSchool

Contemporary Fresco Gazette
http://trueFresco.Org
commission fresco or mural http://iLAdesigns.com

admin
____________________________
Contemporary Fresco Painting Resouce Center
http://TrueFresco.com

Alert | IP

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