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Subject: "Traditional and Modern lime plasters"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Conferences Fresco Painting Plaster Arts & Modern Plasters and Classic Finishes with Frank Prete Topic #19
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Joe19651moderator
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20-Dec-02, 08:40 AM (PST)
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"Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
 
   Mr. Anossov is a good friend of mine and an amazing artist, he owns this site has asked me to moderate this discussion board concerning Traditional and or Modern Lime plasters.

This board will be dedicated to help understand these products as a method of application and understanding the elements manufacturing of modern plasters.

Hope to make some friends and help you with your questions.

Grazie



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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Mitchell Henry 26-Dec-02 1
     RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters joe greco 27-Dec-02 2
  RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Roland L. Richer 05-Jun-04 3
  RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters TahoeBilly 16-Nov-04 5
     RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters adminadmin 22-Nov-04 6
         RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters willyartist 15-Apr-05 7
             RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Roger 15-Apr-05 8
             RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Gary sculptari 17-Apr-05 9
                 RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters william meyer 17-Apr-05 10
                     RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Mitchell Henry 17-Apr-05 11
                         RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters willyartist 17-Apr-05 12
                             RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Gary sculptari 17-Apr-05 13
                                 RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Gary sculptari 17-Apr-05 14
                                     RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters william meyer 17-Apr-05 15
                                         RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Roger 18-Apr-05 16
                                             RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters william meyer 18-Apr-05 17
                                     RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters kirsten 05-Jun-05 18
                                         RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Roger 05-Jun-05 19
                                         RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters adminadmin 06-Jun-05 20
                                             traditional lime over modern substrates kirsten 06-Jun-05 21
                                             RE: traditional lime over modern substrates adminadmin 06-Jun-05 22
                                             RE: traditional lime over modern substrates william meyer 10-Jul-05 23
                                             RE: traditional lime over modern substrates william meyer 10-Jul-05 24
                                             RE: traditional lime over modern substrates adminadmin 15-Jul-05 25
                                             RE: traditional lime over modern substrates kirsten 16-Jul-05 26
                                         RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters Montana 27-Feb-06 33
  Please help: trouble with glaze over plaster maria holden 21-Jul-05 27
     RE: Please help: trouble with glaze over plaster adminadmin 24-Jul-05 28
         RE: Please help: trouble with glaze over plaster glaze/glue 14-Oct-05 31
     RE: Please help: trouble with glaze over plaster carmine b 13-Oct-05 29
         RE: Please help: trouble with glaze over plaster marmorino 14-Oct-05 30
             RE: Please help: trouble with glaze over plaster william meyer 17-Oct-05 32

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Mitchell Henry
Member since 2-Dec-02
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26-Dec-02, 00:38 AM (PST)
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1. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #0
 
   Hey Joe...or Grazie if you prefer.

I am also new to the forum, so welcome!

Coming here myself with a background in Italian wall finishes, I'm glad to see another member with a similar CV. In addition to being a merchant, are you also a painter? I'm not familiar with your product line, but I did check out your website...very nice...but, I was surprised to see what seemed like a somewhat (and correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologize if I am) synthetic line of materials. Is this what you mean by “modern plasters?”

Why is it so difficult to find authentic plasters in North America...not to mention fresco quality lime? I've found that the costs are usually the same, but the quality and working characteristics of the true Italian imports are so much better. Is it that the plaster companies in Italy just don't care to expand their U.S. sales, or is the demand just too low?

Just an opener...many more topics to go...I am very interested in speaking about application methods and the elements manufacturing. I hope there’s some more interest on the board.

Mitchell


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joe greco
unregistered user
27-Dec-02, 10:47 AM (PST)
 
2. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #1
 
   Hi Mitchell, thank you for visiting our web site.

We do carry lime products, as a matter of fact we offer 3 types.

MIZAAR smooth grasello type.
Classic Marmorino
Pitture alla Calce....lime paint.

Our sales in these products are starting to catch up with our synthetic's.

The market in ITALY is somewhat strange at times. Lime plasters are used approx 80% of the time. Synthetic's are still very common and used in different types of application.

I prefer the lime myself and have always beleived in them. The US market is growing very quickly in these types of Lime plasters. There are so many compaines that have products in USA from Italy or france. Do your research and price compare. The true importers have there products priced all in range with each other. The trend for traditional material is exploding and more and more applicators prefer the lime.

Hope that gives you an idea of what I mean by modern and old world plasters.



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Roland L. Richer
unregistered user
05-Jun-04, 05:37 PM (PST)
 
3. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #0
 
   Joe,

Check out this site
WWW.Stannartctr.org

This former church houses over 20,000 square feet of true fresco painting.

Let me know what you think.


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TahoeBilly
Member since 16-Nov-04
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16-Nov-04, 07:24 PM (PST)
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5. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #0
 
   What is the difference in the amount of magnesium in the putty (e.g. high cal verses dolomitic)?

Is the dolomitic softer due to the mag? Does it cure hard eventually?

Thank you in advance!

TahoeBilly


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adminadmin click here to view user rating
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6. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #5
 
high calcium lime putty is usually 90-95% calcium with up to 5% magnesium


dolomitic lime putty is upto 45%+ magnesuum at the expence of calcium

also visit
Contemporary Fresco Gasette http://trueFresco.Org
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willyartist
Member since 14-Apr-05
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15-Apr-05, 05:55 AM (PST)
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7. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #6
 
   hello im fairly new to decorative plasters but ive been a decorative painter just for 10 years.. ive used the kolcaustico and modern masters venetian plaster product line and was happy but not extremely happy because ive seen the lime based plaster looking so much better. so i sought out to make my own plaster. which ive learned alot and happy to say im addicted to this paste. ive tried virginia lime work their so called taditional lime putty but was too sandy then i found graymont dolime which they call their mature lime putty (much finer) and i was wondering how does the low magnesium ratio play apart in the plaster.
roman concrete enthusiast!


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Roger
unregistered user
15-Apr-05, 05:57 PM (PST)
 
8. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #7
 
   I believe that Dolomitic Limes are generally more workable. However, the Magnesium is said to cause efflorescence, which is undesirable if the plaster is coloured. I think the Do lime may also be a little harder as well. I have not used the products you mentioned, but I did make putty from Graymont quicklime. It is now almost one year old and appears smooth, without graininess.


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Gary sculptari
unregistered user
17-Apr-05, 06:54 AM (PST)
 
9. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #7
 
   I also replied elsewhere on the forum.

I just wanted to add that I have been experimenting with magnesium cements - and they much harder than even 100 year old lime. The only problem with the magnesium content is that it can create hard patches in lime plaster - which ONLY creates a problem when the wall is shrinking and contracting (frost and water) and only when magnesium levels are high enough to create this problem (I think 15% has been suggested somewhere). The magnesium is a non-issue - you would have difficulty finding a lime with high magnesium, maybe some agricultural blend (magnesium is wonderful for soil, especially grazing pastures). Efflorescence is not caused by magnesium.

So we are dealing with Calcium Hydroxide - and how, and where, and for what purpose it was calcined becomes the only issue. I was suprised the Graylime was sandy - they add the sand for you?

Check out some of old plaster books at donhead.com if you really want to learn about lime, and lime mortars.


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william meyer
unregistered user
17-Apr-05, 08:21 AM (PST)
 
10. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #9
 
   thank you for your info ... so the magnesium makes it harder ? i made a polishable plaster that is so hard i cant even dig my finger in it or scratch it using the graymonts limeputty i guess theirs is high in magnesium even with one coat floated on it has mottling like stone or venetian plaster and it sticks to previously painted surfaces! i put a first coat to see how it bonded to the surface then plan to polish the 2nd while still wet . i did a sample already and it polishes like glass but u have to polish while wet. im extemely happy with the results. using lime/pozzolan component with 5 percent acrylic resins and dispersing agents. ROMAN CONCRETE! the virginia limeworks was had bits of sands or not ground up enough which scratched the surface. i think the mixture i made can be done on exteriors as well but only time and more experimentation will tell!


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Mitchell Henry
Member since 2-Dec-02
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17-Apr-05, 09:20 AM (PST)
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11. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #10
 
   Very interesting Mr. Meyer. Sounds like you may have a successful recipe going there. It's true that all lime putty plasters, Marmorino, Stucco, etc. need to be polished while they are still somewhat moist. A couple of questions though. You say this plaster sticks to a painted surface... is it an absorbent surface, i.e. with suction or do you atribute it to the acrylic content you added? And, if you don't mind me asking, what the 'pozzolon' component that you used, clay?
Good luck with your new mix.



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willyartist
unregistered user
17-Apr-05, 09:59 AM (PST)
 
12. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #11
 
   hello i live in an old 50s beach house that the walls are plaster but i dont know what kind but unfortunately some walls are painted with your average interior eggshell latex paint and it stuck fine very hard. i attribute the small percent acrylic resin for more binding marble dust for aggregate and ive tried two pozzolans one is pure lassenite from lassen california lake bed diatoms and volcanic ash but it is light brown in color and actually tinted the paste the other is a white pozzolan i found researching on the web that they use for pools. i think the ingredients are a diff type of pozz metakaolin because there is diff types that all create cementious properties with lime or portland cement . mt vesuvius dirt volcanic ash mixed with lime or atown in italy pozzoloui(maybe misspelled) where the name originated. fly ash and metakaolin are the others which all possolans are good for hydrating the front lawn which is next on the agenda haha at least thats what they say about the lassenite. interesting though they used this stuff to make the hoover dam or one of those damns and used for golf courses. aerification .. interesting polishing 1000s of year old fossils mixed with lime and marble dust. i think the white pozz is my best bet and maybe use the darker pozz for darker colors... know of any good limeproof pigments?


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Gary sculptari
unregistered user
17-Apr-05, 03:22 PM (PST)
 
13. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #12
 
   know of any good
>limeproof pigments?

Try kremer-pigmente.com. They have a list of known stable with lime pigments. There are others I have discovered - some pretty exotic - like ground up holographic film, and a beautiful, glow in the dark, swimming pool blue.

White pozzolan sound interesting. Lots of Flyash here - cheap, industrial byproduct, less than portland cement. A light brown color.


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Gary sculptari
unregistered user
17-Apr-05, 03:30 PM (PST)
 
14. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #13
 
   When selling lime finishes professionally.

It is important to emphasise that you are recovering the breathability of the wall. There is an inexpensive ($400?) sandblaster which blasts and vacuums at the same time. Not industrial quality, but enough to remove layers of latex, wallpaper, alkyds. The number one household insurance claim in the USA is over mold, water vapor must be able to flow. An annual lime wash kills molds, bacterias, and probably viruses too - and the whole room smells fresh and clean (unlike other paints)

The second, especially on outside work, is to emphasise that lime finish 'patinates' rather than completely fails. The latexes and alkyds look new - and then fail spectacularly. The lime finishes wear in like an old pair of blue jeans - and some people actually prefer that look

Lime finishes are for those with distinguished tastes, but a good pool of clients should keep you, and your kids, busy for a long time.


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william meyer
unregistered user
17-Apr-05, 08:43 PM (PST)
 
15. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #14
 
   thanks for the info . as far as the walls breathing im sure it would be better to strip all the paint down to plaster but if i put 2 to three coats of lime plaster over whats there would that not be ok .. i guess just this amount of covering would be breathable but wouldnt have the electostatic film that attracts dust like most modern paints but wouldnt be fully breathable with that barrier substrate. professionaly i would strip it in clients home given the same circumstances (having plasters walls like in my home) but i needed to test the binding capabilities over a regular painted surface with my concoction.hehe thanks for the link to kremerpigments website ill have to try theirs. ohh and i was reading about the magnesium marble , sounds interesting!


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Roger
unregistered user
18-Apr-05, 04:31 PM (PST)
 
16. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #15
 
   Your recipe is interesting. I know the old recipe was to use glue, whose purpose I presume is same as the acrylic resin you mention. However, why the use a pozzalanic additive? Do you find that your surface is otherwise too soft? Do you use an aggregate (eg marble dust)? I was planning to try the old recipe (glue/marble dust) in a room once I finish the float coat.


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william meyer
unregistered user
18-Apr-05, 11:49 PM (PST)
 
17. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #16
 
   im trying to \stay with all organic materials but i know with our substrates there has to be some 5 percent binder but i researched the pozzolans they used in roman times and there is many diff types of them specially for pools that make lime or portland cements more cementious / harder especially helping the ozone layer buy adding more organic material with the plaster therefore reducing the amount of carbon released in the atmosphere. so the more recyclable material that s mixed with your plaster actually helps the environment which im trying to achieve especially because i sick of smelling inert gases!!!oil or acrylic but just trying to take vitruvius ideals and just dont take what history gives us but build upon them (using the right and left brain) sorry for getting to remorse! but im a firm believer in recycling. such as the magnesium marble that sculptari relates to that the aggregates used are simple light weight sawdust that achieve the same results.. and 10 times harder interesting but stilll researching ohh and and i used hide glue and it works the same but still finding cheaper distributors and yes just lime and marble dust over our substrates prove to not bind to the wall without glue or acrylic resin because lime plaster is generally trowelled over lime or caustic substrates burning into each layer but the 2nd dna coat proves to give the same mottling affect as so called venetian plaster/ polished stone... the pozzolan/lime chemical reaction is a proven fact just look at the pantheon parthenon i forget in rome still standing .. hey check this out lassenite lassen county california they sent me a free bag of pozzolan tan in color made of 1000 s of year old lake bed fossils and volcanic ash free to test read ther website lime pozz reaction used to make the hoover damn! or fly ash but that black or gray would b good for dark color plaster i would think. anyone interested


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kirsten
Member since 5-Jun-05
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05-Jun-05, 11:36 AM (PST)
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18. "RE: Traditional and Modern lime plasters"
In response to message #14
 
   Dear all,

I'm new to this group, and totally fascinated by the posts I've read. I am a professional plasterer with a strong background in earthen materials and I have recently absolutely fallen in love with lime. I am a tech geek with a good understanding of different types of limes, pozzolans and pigments.

But recently I felt very much in over my head. I am doing an interior application of a polished lime finish on a two coat application. First coat 1 : 2.5 lime to plaster sand, second coat 1 : 1 lime to marbledust. I get wonderful color saturations and a readily sealed polished surface. I won't call it tadelakt because it's not made with Morrocan lime, but that is the type of finish for which I am aiming.

Here's the problem: the base coat is spalling off the walls. I was advised