really good thread guys!
much appreciate these discussions on the fundamentals......
finding out about materials is intriguing,and the problems have been solved with variations in different localities.

the split has ocurred in many countries with the old lime traditions being handed on.but they still exist in the middle east,italy,france etc

noyice how you have to worry about what sand it is from home depot.......like trying to make cakes or bread from all in one packet ingredients from a supermarket.

these discussions get us more and more to a total handa-on
ability. and gary has always explored and been so inventive.

look forward to a trip over to usa some time to catch up and swap
some good times - joe