Hi everyone,

There has been a big debate on how to store pigments used for frescoes. Some say to keep the pigments dry, others say a paste form is best. I'm curious to know what anyone out there thinks works best for themselves, or in general,..........

Thanks for your replies

Ciao
Carter Averbeck
www.TrompeArt.com

I would say dry, once you discover the world of pigments, and making your own paints, a whole new world opens up. If you mix with water, this would mean you couldn't mix them with polyester or epoxy resin, or spar marine varnish. Its great having small quantities of a "tougher than paint" paint available in any color of the rainbow. Great for touching up exterior pieces - talk about custom color problems - mixing your own is the only way to go.

I would mix wet if you come up with a particular pigment mix that you are in love with - saves a lot of time when you want to use it six months down the road. Not a problem if you keep a pigment journal though - you are all doing that - right? Collecting all the safety data sheets too?

Do you know the "heavy metal" pigments are being phased out by the big makers. If you like a particular pigment, and it has proven itself over the years, you may want to stockup before all these "new improved" versions hit the market. Still many old time artists swear there is no substitute for lead white or naples yellow or indian yellow - they wished they would have stocked up.

Gary,

Thanks for the reply. I usually store my pigments dry, but it seems many companies that supply these pigments are starting to ship them in paste form, and I just wondered why they do that? And yes, I keep a colour, or recipe jounal as well as tile composites.

I didn't know Naples yellow was a "heavy metal" type pigment. What is ut made out of? Naples yellow is the one of the colours I use most in obtaining flesh tones,......

Thanks
Carter Averbeck
www.trompeArt.com

I may be sloppy on the Naples Yellow - I thought this is the one hard to get, Paris Yellow? I'm still learning pigments. A yellow I like a lot is Nickel Titanium, it is very opaque, light yellow, and has all sorts of health warnings on it. I think some colors like true Indian Yellow were banned not because of toxicity but because the inhumane way they were produced - cows in India were force fed mango leaves and their bright orange/yellow urine dried into a type of clay, to make the pigment. This is bizarre but true! The pigments most likely to be replaced will be the cadmiums and cobalts.

As you know it is the dust which is the most hazardous part of the pigment, so maybe once again maybe artists need protecting against themselves- helpless babies . I read somewhere that professional artists make up less than 8 percent of the art supply/art materials market. The pasted pigments might therefore be a part of consumer protection? If you read any of Michael Wilcox's books, you will see he does not have a high opinion of artist supply companies. Maybe its so they can mix in more fillers (water is a filler when you think about it!)

Hi Gary,

Yes I thought that Naples yellow was some kind of sulphite in the clay,....but yes, I have heard of the Urine soaked clay pigment theory and know that it is indeed true. But hey! whatever makes for great art!!!! Puts a new meaning to the fairly recent Shock Art show in New York where Guiliani wanted to shut down the show because of the vile "Feces art", as well as other works. Who knows,...we could start a business making our own "yellow" clay just by buying a six pack of beer and going into our own backyards!!! lol. Sort of "a la Warhol pee painting scenario"

Yes, water could be considered a filler, but I doubt that art supply comapnies would use it as such. Simply because it would cost more to ship considering the weight, and also, water doesn't neccessarily make the colourant go farther. I could be wrong on that reason though. Low grade fillers such as chalk, unstrained linseed oil, and other stuff are used as fillers simply because they take the place of companies having to add more (read exspensive), colour pigment. So those cheap paints you buy at the art store are mostly filler with just enough colourant to give the right hue. The exspensive paints are filled with more pigment.

Oh well. I'm glad I have my storage of dry stuff, and a good company to get pigments from. I'll keep on storing them the way I have always done.

This is a cool forum isn't it?

Talk to you later,
ciao
Carter
www.TrompeArt.com

News flash - this just in. Was checking out the Kremer-pigmente website for updates - this is new and timely:

""Many yellow pigments with good hiding power have recently discontinued because of their toxicity; Chrome yellow contains lead, as does Naples yellow, and many artists are now avoiding cadmium yellow. A new pigment, Bristol yellow, which is based on non-toxic bismuth, is both metal-based and covering, as well as being very brilliant and lightfast, making it not only a good substitute for the discontinued pigments, but also an excellent new color for artists. A customer of ours writes from Germany:
"The Bristol yellow type of pigments are not yet available in tubes. The powder is very soft and can be easily turned into any kind of paint for which a careful mixing with a palette knife or disperion in a mortar and pestle is sufficient. Only when filling the paint into tubes would one recommend mulling the pigment with a glass muller. Because of its high specific weight, one should let the mixture stand a little, add some more pigment if oil separates out, and possibly add some wax paste (no. 79250 wax paste oil medium) to prevent further separation in the tube. Bristol yellow is a normal drying pigment, which can be used in all oils without drier, preferably in walnut or linseed oil.
Bristol yellow is also very suited for tempera technique. After varnishing, there is practically no visual difference to cadmium yellow. Mixed with an acrylic dispersion, one can easily produce acrylic paint that outperforms most commercial products. Despite of its hiding power, the particular brilliance of Bristol yellow makes the hues also very effective in watercolor technique, for which they are dispersed with a gum arabic solution in a mortar and pestle. Bristol yellow is always used on bottom layers in watercolor painting. Bristol yellow is a good example for the emrgence of new and superior materials, that also exhibit a maximum of ecological safety."

43101 Bristol yellow light 100 g / 27.90
43111 Bristol yellow medium 100 g / 27.90
43131 Bristol yellow reddish 100 g / 27.90
79250 Wax paste oil medium 180 ml / 6.80 ""

Who knows if this pigment is any good for fresco. We are the only ones who care, and will be the ones who have to test it. And ten years from now, the old pigments might be unavailable - all because somebody thinks artists eat paint, and have to be protected.

yeah vincent gave us a bad rep.... eating paint and all,id love to get my hands on some napels yellow.ill get back to u on the bristols yellow..........................

>
>Who knows if this pigment is
>any good for fresco. We
>are the only ones who
>care, and will be the
>ones who have to test
>it. And ten years from
>now, the old pigments might
>be unavailable - all because
>somebody thinks artists eat paint,
>and have to be protected.
>
I am slightly conservative with modern pigments when used for fresco. I have a couple of pounds of beautiful green that has been given to me years ago by a friend (she was one of the WPA artists). This green is still in the original tin can that says:
Fine Fresco Pigments packaged in 1937. Guess what? Thanks to my habit - I always add a little of lime to my mixes - I did not spoil a fresco - the damn thing turned lemon yellow before my eyes! I think this happened because during the 60 years in the can something happened with chemical structure of the pigment (it must be synthetic). I've heard that some chemical reactions go into "slow mode" so this green worked well when it was tested in 1930th but failed after 60 years.
Since the "disappearing of the pigments is going on we probably should stock enough for 50 years or so.

u said journal garry, good thinking.could u please give me a list of pigments they want make vanish.its hard enough finding them down under............thanx

Kremer Pigments still carries the heavy metals-lead white, Naples etc...you can take a look at www.kremer-pigmente.com or call for a free catalog (800-995-5501)
Yes I work there just on Saturdays & it changed my life:) I make my own watercolors...

i store my pigments, there is nothing better than a fresh palet,fresh prepared before getting stuck into it

Storing pigments dry is the most versatile option. Dry pigments can be mixed with any medium aka - oil, egg (for tempera), acrylic and of cause water or "milk of lime" if we are talking about fresco. Oil and acrylic are the easy ones - mixed more than needed - tube the thing! Did not mix enough - mix some more. With fresco, it is somehow different.

<<There has been a big debate
<<on how to store pigments used
<<for frescoes. Some say to keep
<<the pigments dry, others say a
<<paste form is best...

When preparing for painting a fresco every moment counts, more - there seems to be never enough time - I never spent less than 10 hours painting a giornata and I do not do the plaster myself (This is not what one may call a luxurious living but rather a necessity!).

It takes about 4 hours to prepare and lay the intonaco plus about 2 hours to finish the day trim the line and stuff. It takes about 30 min. to an hour to properly grind a small portion of a single base-colour. Base colours: 2 blue, 2 green, 2 red, 2 ochras, 2 umbers, 2 sienas and couple others that I personally like - total 14-15 colour, plus a good portion of "bianco" (not sure about spelling - in English this would be fine ground lime powder ground with water just before painting and at the middle of the day - for white - lives only about six hours. This is the reason to grind it twice a day, after six hours lime "swells up" and it is not good for painting.) Are you counting hours? I got 18 so far. Than add to it couple of hours to prepare the all of the colour tones for the day - mixing then as you go is not very wise - it is curtail to remember what has been mixed the day before, and the day before, and the day before to a "tee" - so all the parts of the body are of the same "race" and no "arlequine (joker)" pants. Now add about an hour to pounce the cartoon and setup - it is good to do the pouncing the same day - helps to tune in and refresh the "lines". So where are we now? Ah... 21 hours and we did not even started to paint yet.

Quite a list (Carter, Gary and Bottaro I am sure you know all that, I just wanted to let the fresco beginners to get an idea), have to get to the point now.

I keep base-colours for fresco ground with distilled water in glass jars about half to a pound of each. Pigment settles at the bottom into a thick paste. Pigments can be kept this way for years. When ready to paint regrind the paste as needed for the day with the "milk of lime". If pigments are ground well from the start then do the mixes and use the time saved for painting.
I also have every pigment in dry form, 2-3 pounds of each.
The only concern with that is the moisture, so far it was OK - no lumps.

Although earth pigments and oxides are relatively inexpensive and widely available, some other kinds are hard to find! For example my special blue - I have half a pound left and clueless what to do when it runs out.
If I would grind it for each fresco separately I will have to throw away what's left unmixed each day. It can be more than half. Bad enough that all mixes have to be chucked!

Ilia Anossov
http://www.truefresco.com

After reading the posts I have a question regarding the re-mixing. After the pigments are ground with water and stored as a paste with water covering the top. They can then be re-mixed just before use. Does that mean additional water and mauled (sp) again? and for how long and is that necessary? or can you just stir? Thanks

Hi Abby, nice to hear from you again!

You do not need to remix the whole lot. Use the spoon to scoop enough for the day of painting and pot it in the separate container, leave the rest as it is (in the jar under the layer of water).

Add water as necessary and stir, you can regrind the pigment before adding water if you wish.

If water or pigment is imperfect it may go stale after a while. This is why traditionally for important (commissioned) frescoes pigments where ground fresh for each day. However you need a full size workshop with one ore two assistants to do it (there is no time for the painter to do it on his/her own)

For instudio, small frescoes and experiments, storing pigments as described in this topic is the way to go.
Just make sure that water is distilled, pigments are fresh and pure and came from the reliable sources.

ilia
ilia

LAST EDITED ON 01-Dec-01 AT 01:40 PM (PST)
 

I would suggest testing all of the synthetic pigments (>Irgazine Orange - a new substitute >for Cadmium) thoroughly
and, if possible, not to use them at all.

Test it this way - grind some pigment with water and mix the resulted past with lime patty. Leave to sit for a long while (month?). If color changes - do not use it.

However this test is not the "ultimate test" - time is the best tester!
Here is an example from my studio:
I have about 2LB of the beautiful green - it was manufactured for fresco in 1930th, the original tin reads "Fine Fresco Pigments" - gift from a friend, former WPA artist. Guess what? this thing (gp) turns to ugly yellow almost as you mix it with lime. My explanation would be - some chemical reactions are very "slow" (read about it somewhere)- this pigment tested as perfect for fresco 70 years ago, but now formula became unstable.
So go figure!!!

Pigments you can trust:

Lime White
Cadmium Yellow, light
Yellow Ochre
Raw Sienna
Burnt Sienna
Pezzuole Red
Earth Red, red oxide
Light Red
Venitian Red
Cadmium Red
Raw Umber
Burnt Umber
Terra Verde
Malachite Green
Verdaccio
Veridian
Cobalt Green
Cobalt Blue
Ultramarine
Lapis Lasuly (cost an arm and a leg)

Glass mullers are expensive, traditionally they where substituted with small polished blocks of marble or granite. You can get those cheaply in local marble place

Ilia Anossov
http://www.truefresco.com/workshop

Now you can purchase pigments, fresco brushes, fresco lime putty (also good for venetian stuccos, etc.) online at
http://www.truefresco.com/frescoshoppe

I think Abby and iLia mentioned storing pigments for initial use under a layer of water.
I'd like to add to this. I was taught in Florence the art of fresco. As I'm sure you all know, the calcium in the lime paste is the binding agent of fresco painting, just as oil is the binder in oil painting.
(This is why marble dust,which is full of calcium is good to mix into intonaco)

I was taught to take just a scoop of lime paste and set it in a full bucket of water. The water will turn milky white at first but the lime will quickly settle to the bottom. In not more than a day, the surface of the water will develope a hazy crystal film... like ice on a pond in winter... this means that the calcium in the lime paste has spread throughout the water in the bucket.... now here's the payoff....

Take a small jar, break the crystal surface of the water and scoop up the calcium water... it will look like ordinary water (you can take some of the crystal for good measure, but it's not essential).
Scoop your dry pigment into your jar of calcium water and let it sit for 24 hours. This is a great way to help permeate your pigments with calcium, so that when they hit the wet lime plaster, they are all the more ready to bind. Every little bit helps in fresco.

When you paint, scoop the paint out of the bottom of the jar in paste form and go to it! This is great for a project under way, otherwise store pigments dry for the long term.

Nathan