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Subject: "Fresco Painting in a Dome"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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simon
Member since 18-Sep-02
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12-Jul-04, 11:00 PM (PST)
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"Fresco Painting in a Dome"
 
   I have been painting frescoes in a church in Northern California on and off for 7 years. Until now, we have been painting only on flat walls. Presently, we are preparing to paint the dome of the church, and I am wondering if, historically, the same plaster recipes were used in domes, ceilings, and vaults as those used on walls. Thus far, and as far as we can observe, our plastering technique has worked, and has had no adhesion problems. Now that we are moving to the dome, it occurs to us that our plaster rendering will be upside down. My plasterers, professional men, who although not familiar with the technique of fresco painting, are very knowledgeable in matters pertaining to plaster walls and ceilings. They are worried about the brown coat (arriciato), believing the mix to be too "soft," and not strong enough to properly adhere to the scratch coat, hold the painting coat, and remain in place, considering the surface in question is hanging upside down. The scratch coat (trullisatio) is being done on a very solid structure of expanded metal lath.

My plaster recipe, a very simple one, the same used by Dimitrov and Bloc, assistants to Diego Riveira:

Scratch Coat (trullisatio):
1 part lime putty
1.5 part coarse sand
1 part dry white cement

Brown Coat (Arriciato):
1 part lime putty
2 parts sand

Painting Coat (Intonaco):
1 part lime putty
1 part fine sand

Can anyone advise me, or point me to someone with knowledge of historical information on fresco painting on ceilings, vaults and domes?

I have attached two photos to this posting, but never having done this before, I'm not sure they will be visible. One photo shows some of the frescoes our workshop has recently completed. The other shows the dome, with the plasterer applying the scratch coat to the lath.

Thanks very much to all the people who have posted such interesting and useful information on this site.

Fr. Simon
Saint Gregory of Sinai Monastery

Attachments

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http://www.truefresco.com/dcforum/User_files/40f3792966b27787.jpg

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Iliamoderator
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13-Jul-04, 07:51 AM (PST)
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1. "RE: Fresco Painting in a Dome"
In response to message #0
 
Hi Fr. Simon,

Long time since we "spoke" last, how is that mysterios green, did you found it?

anyway, with proper moisture control during application it should take just fine (your mixes above).

Perhaps it will be helpfull to talk it over the phone with Ian (our plasterer). I am not sure if it will be a good idea to post his ph# here, so please call my # (310) 779-5079 and I will give you his.

ilia

http://www.FrescoSchool.com


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simon
Member since 18-Sep-02
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27-Jul-04, 02:42 PM (PST)
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3. "RE: Fresco Painting in a Dome"
In response to message #1
 
   Thank you, Ilia for your help. It was a great pleasure to speak again with you. I have not yet spoken to Ian, but hope to soon. It is a relief to speak with people struggling with the same technical issues, and solving the same problems. Presently, we have just the scratch coat in the dome, which looks good so far, and will be doing the rough coat (arriciato) in the coming weeks, as far as I know. It is difficult with hired plasterers, as they are very wary of fresco painting technique for plastering. They want to hose down every batch of mortar with huge amounts of water. You really have to keep an eye on things. I will keep you up to date with what happens, and post some pictures when we have some developments.

I am trying to send the "Mystery Green" to Mr. Kremer in Germany, who I heard will sometimes analyze colors.

Thanks again.


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Gary sculptari
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15-Jul-04, 04:59 PM (PST)
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2. "RE: Fresco Painting in a Dome"
In response to message #0
 
   It would seem you are right on track formula wise. The key, of course, is to layer everything while it is 'green' to adhere the layers. Otherwise you will have to use a little 'concrete bonder' solution to 'glue' the layers together. This works real well unless there is a lot of moisture - a highly undesirable situation I'm sure.

Fr Dunstan of the Mission Abbey here in British Columbia is finally finishing his fresco.
<http://sck.ca/The%20Monks_files/the%20monks.htm>
He is very experienced - you might contact him as well.

My friend went to see him recently. He was working with a young assistant who was maybe a little bit missing. When my friend started talking about Mexican fresco, the previously quiet assistant angrily replied 'fresco is a religious art - for religion only'. Needless to say my friend was shocked, and I'm sure Fr Dunstan was embarassed too.


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simon
Member since 18-Sep-02
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30-Jul-04, 05:13 PM (PST)
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4. "RE: Fresco Painting in a Dome"
In response to message #2
 
   Dear Gary,
Thanks very much for your input. It is very timely. My plasterers wanted to put their scratch coat on in 2 applications, although I didn't see the advantage to this. The photograph I posted shows that first thin partial scratch coat. They tried to apply a second layer to the first layer, but the plaster had dried so thoroughly in one week, that they could not get the second coat (same mix as the first) to adhere properly. As of yesterday, they wanted to mix a vinyl bonding agent into the wetting water prior to trowelling on the next (cement/scratch) coat. This seems in accordance with your advice. Now, however, the plasterers, on the advice of on older generation plasterer in their company are going back to simply wetting the earlier coat. They say that they just have to have an extra guy on hand to do the wetting. What do you think of all this? The first "half" of the scrach coat is now two weeks old.

Also, they will want to do the brown coat now right away, within 48 hours after the final part of the scratch coat is applied. What do you think of that? With the Dimitrovs, we always let the cement scratch coat dry at least a week. They also liked the brown coat ( and sand coat, if being used) to dry thoroughly before the painting layer was applied. I studied fresco in France, where we always did the brown coat the day before we painted, and left it covered overnight with wet burlap to keep it damp. Intonaco was always applied to a damp arriciato. The resulting fresco was always hard like stone. If we wait on the brown coat, and the scratch coat dries thoroughly, would you use a bonding agent between the scratch and brown coats?

I 'm sorry to hear of that puzzling comment by the assistant of Fr. Dunsten. I'm not sure what the fellow could have been be trying to say. The comment really doesn't make any sense.

I also wanted to thank you for your many postings to this forum, which I have found extremely helpful and useful. Your method of a panel-less portable fresco (using just the metal lathe) has proved to be a good technique in our studio here at the monastery. Your writings on lime and the other materials of the trade are terrific.


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Gary sculptari
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05-Aug-04, 05:36 PM (PST)
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5. "RE: Fresco Painting in a Dome"
In response to message #4
 
   Sorry I didn't get to your post sooner - I am sure you have worked things out by now. It sounds like the plasterers feel as though they have to do an extra special job for you - and this rattles your and their self confidence. If they care - which they obviously do - the job will find its way. It is the selfish know-it-alls to avoid in tradework.

You can't go wrong with the bonding agent between layers - although some of the museum conservation people feel there might be a greater tendency for the layers to separate if you had a long period of running water through the roof - a highly unlikely occurrence - unless a second flood is in the offing

Another reason I like the bonding is because I often try to introduce the cracking effect from too rich a lime, and the agent allows the cracking without sheets coming off - obviously this is tricky, and needs practise.

"The Art Bulletin" still discusses fresco does it not, but its pretty heavy goinf from what I have seen ? When I have time, I will practice a reproduction of a Giotto angel - have you ever applied real gold leaf (as a halo)? Thank you for your kind words but I assure you I have much more to learn from you than you will ever learn from me.


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