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botticelli_angel
Member since 11-May-04
16 posts, Rate this user
18-Oct-04, 12:59 PM (PST)
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"Like Fire"
 
  
Hello Ilia and co. Things have been going great here in the world of Fresco. Its still the only thing i think about, and i am grasping onto every concept i try my hand to with ease and almost perfect understanding as far as I can tell. I have been talking to everybody i meet about it, and a word that was once foreign to almost everyone in these parts is now buzzing on the lips of even people who have never taken brush in hand before in their life. People find it all so interesting.I truly beleive that this generation is on the advent of a new resurgence of Fresco that has been five hundred years in the making and i long with every fibre of my frame to do all i can for it. It feels so exciting. I'm so excited! I just had a few more tiny questions i was hoping to get some feedback on. Tid-bits to fill in the holes of my practice. But first just allow me to reiterate my gratitude for what all you guys are doing here for fresco. I truly believe what you are doing is elemental and a necessity for spreading the word across north america and the world. I beleive fresco is truly all about hard work and the reward that comes with it. The beginner must learn everything from the root up. Dig up his\her own sand, wash and mix into the plaster. Become intimate with every aspect of the Art, fall in Love with the mess'o that is fresco. And to see it come together is truly an amazing thing. Anyways.....
1. I was hoping you could give me some tips on washing sand? I have found a pit of sand down by the Grand River which runs through my city, and have been going down there with two 5 gallon buckets, filling up, and bringing them back, very, very slowely (with lots of stops). But its great. The other day i did it twice to stock up for winter, for soon the ground will be frozen. But i need a better way to wash it. Any sugestions other then just buying pre-washed sand? I read once that it was down in a barrel with a hose somehow, but i don;t know.
2. My next question is can I use Prussian Blue? Is it Fresco Friendly? It says it is made from 'ferri-ammonium ferrocyanide (PB27:1). I just bought it, but havn't had a chance to use it yet for anything. But i am finding everything i have, as long as its applied correctly, and the lime has been done well, that they all seem to stick just fine, and only seem to get harder as time goes on.
3. Im a little unclear as to what the golden hour is. Actually, i don;' think im unclear at all, but i need some sort of confirmation on the matter. I know its difficult to explain, but i would like to try and write what i observe when the time comes while im painting that i have been beleiving is my 'golden hour'. At first when i paint everything is very wet and clammy, the colors take longer to set in and often stay on the surface for sometime. As the plaster begins to cure it is able to draw more of the paint in, and layers of color are able to be applied more frequently. But at first, as far as detail, and presicion of lines go, it is difficult to be as accurate as you would like to be. But later on, hours later this time comes and all of a sudden everything is easier. Detail and precision flow from the brush. One thing i have noticed that is signature for everytime this happens for me is as i am painting a line with the brush, following just behind it, almost appearing to chase the brush, like fire from a match would chase a car that had a steady stream of gasoline leaking from its rear, you can see the plaster drink the paint only moments after they make their first kiss. Almost like the color goes from glossy to mat a second after it is layed down. For some reason this all makes excellant conditions for painting and if I am mistaken then i don't know. Does this make sense? Am i correct? wether i am or im not it certainly is a beautiful time. Im stil a little iffy on when to stop. I can't tell exactly when the plaster has finally locked up. But ive never had anything come off so maybe ive never gone that long. I don't have the data sheet for my lime so im not sure how pure it is.
Anyways.. thats all for now. I have gotten myself a couple pouncing wheels so i no longer have to do each hole with a pin, which is very relieving. Ive managed to join my Giornatas fairly seemlessly. Each one is better then the last. And now i am designing a large Fresco for the university here in town and am focusing on the problems of concept and design, and bringing something large scale from small prep drawings. I love it all so much. Thank you for your help and time.

Ryan Van Dijk


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Gary sculptari
unregistered user
24-Oct-04, 10:55 AM (PST)
 
1. "RE: Like Fire"
In response to message #0
 
   Sounds like you have the fire in your soul - not just the brush!

I really like the idea how you have adapted fresco to your local circumstance and materials. It would be easy for me to point out that 'sharp' sand is preferable to 'rounded' river and beach sand. But you know - the use of local sand, from the local river, may just increase the demand (and price) of your work! If you insist on washing, I think because it is not sea water, with salt, the point of it is screen out tiny particles/dirt - so you need a mesh screen of some type. The sand and gravel companies use this all the time - but of course their needs, and volumes are entirely different. Try a garden supply - they screen soil too. Maybe leevalley.com

That is an annoying stage when you are all set up to paint but the lime is still too wet - I have put a hair dryer on it in the past. Don't forget I also overpaint with potassium silicate and fresco pigments - slightly moisten the 'green' lime (say within 24 hours of it setting off) and it paints exactly like the 'golden' time and dries matte too. This is as weather resistant as lime fresco. The only caveat is that if it does build up to thick (multiple layers of silicate) it may shine a little bit so it really is best for touchups, line work. A lot less stress anyways.

Lime compatibility you can check yourself or go to kremer-pigmente.com. They sell small quantities of potassium silicate too.


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botticelli_angel
Member since 11-May-04
16 posts, Rate this user
24-Oct-04, 02:57 PM (PST)
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2. "RE: Like Fire"
In response to message #1
 
  
Thank you once again Gary.

I will try to put all that to good use. I had actually gone to kremer before to see if Prussion Blue could be found under their 'pigments for Fresco' catalogue. But i didn't see it there. But they also said their list is not definitive, so i thought i would ask here to see if anyone knew off the bat. Though i suppose the best way to find out is to try it myself. And that i will do. I just have no long term experience with such things, and i know with fresco often things will appear to work at first, only to find out later on down the road that it actually served to some ill-effect.
I once tried to wash my sand by stuffing as much as i could into a panty hose (you can actually fit quite a bit in just one legging), and then ran it under the tap of the bathtub. Only once the sand got wet it started to leak out of the mesh of the hose as well, so i scrapped that idea. But i will go to a garden store and see what they have to offer or suggest. Do you think its really important for the sand to be washed? Would the dirt that is mixed in along with the sand cause any problems other than dis-coloration of the lime? I have used un-washed sand before in practice panels and it seems to have worked quite well. But once again my experience makes it impossible to say anything definitively.
A few days ago I had taken a little trip out of town and bought myself 4 20k bags of high calcium hydrated lime and a big plastic garbage can with wheels to store and age it all in once I slake it. So thats pretty exciting. I also was able to find out the data information on the lime i have been using all this time and was pleased to see that it had 94.8% calcium and 1.01% magnesium on average. I was pretty happy about that. not perfect, but i mean while im learning and praticing on my own it seems to work great.
i wrote a childrens song about fresco that everyone seems to think is just absolutely helarious. It teaches you a little bit about fresco, a little bit of italian, and a bit about masters who have used fresco in the past. Plus it can be sung in 'a round'(i think thats what that is called when one set of people sing the song normally and then another group comes in singing from the first verse, only they come in when the first group is halfway through the song, or so many beats ahead.. however.)Its kinda short, but Its fun to sing.. kinda polka-ish. hehe. Anyways.. painting houses is tottally un-mentally stimulating for me so i get a lot of spare time in my head to come up with this stuff durring the day.
This might be a silly question. The Sistine Chapel- All the fresco's have cracks, big and small running through them. Were these placed there intentionally by the artist, or are they just a byproduct of time? Ive always thought they are just markings of the passing of time and the shifting of the earth, but just wondering. Will all fresco's eventually begin to crack?
Thats enought of that. hope everything is going great for you, and anyone else who may be reading. Keep painting.

R


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Gary sculptari
unregistered user
24-Oct-04, 08:54 PM (PST)
 
3. "RE: Like Fire"
In response to message #2
 
   So much enthusiasm and many questions.

Don't get hung up on sand - whatever works - works. If dirt creates problems - don't use it or get rid of it. Salt is the big problem - realise that most people think of the seashore when they think free sand. The cracks in the chapel were caused by some serious structure problems and too wet of a mix - they only occur to us because lime shrinks and sand does not - so cracks are caused by too little sand. Eventually you will learn this like cooking - you just know when its right.

Don't get hungup on magnesium either - it is superior to lime and can create hard spots - a minor worry structurally outdoors - a major worry if it will not absorb pigment.

Not sure if I want to hear the song - i compose songs for my dogs all the time so I know how they can get stuck in your head, and be a constant embarassment to those who love us. Sounds like hip hop?


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botticelli_angel
Member since 11-May-04
16 posts, Rate this user
25-Oct-04, 02:41 PM (PST)
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4. "RE: Like Fire"
In response to message #3
 
   I'm not getting hung up on any of these things. WHen i ask questions it is not because i am allowing them to get in my way, it is because i wish to know everything about everything for my own personal benefit.
No the song is not hip-hop. geeeshh... how do you get hip hop out of polka? Anyways, i can't sing it for you because you can't hear me. So were safe on that point.
Soooo, i found myself awhile ago inheriting 300k of silica sand and thought i should give it a shot in my intonaco just to see what happens. I found it incredibly difficult to mix in the lime in the first place. After awhile though i finally got it into some sort of buttery consistancy. It was also incredibly difficult to trowel onto the panel. If i had arms of steel that may have helped, but as it is im skinny and gangely(sp?) and found it quite difficult. But i got it on. Unfortunately by this time it was very late and i ended up falling asleep just before i was to begin painting. So i didn't get to see how the colors adhered. But when i woke up in the morning it was cracked as though i didn't put any sand in it at all almost... well..now as i look at it, not that bad, but pretty bad. i mixed it at a 1:1 ratio, and to tell you the truth i wouldn't want to have to put more silica in it because it just would have been crazy to try and mix in. There are some nice qualities to it though. Its very white, very creamy and nice to work with once you get it moving, and it has a nice sheen and a nice feel to it. Much different then just using river sand. I think i will stick with what i have been doing all along because it works, but im glad i gave silica a try. I have a big bag of 'limestone screenings'as well. Do you know if that can be used for anything beneficial? Also something i inherited.

As for the sistine, i understand that many of the large cracks, like the ones running vertically through the creation of adam are most likely from structural problems, but i was refering to the more subtle cracks. The little tiny ones that run through the whole painting that you can see when you look closely. They are even all over the botticell's and ghirliandio's etc.. on the second tier. So you say those are from to wet of a mix? So were they always there? the day after the artist painted, did he walk into the chapel and see what we see now in regards to the hairline cracks (almost like the crackle effect paint shops market), or did they come later on in the aging process. I know you don't know everything in the world, i guess what im wondering is, was this something the artist knew would happen, or did intenionally because it was an effect that was desired, or are they the product of time or mistakes in the plaster mixture? ANyways, ultimately it doesn't really matter. Im just being inquisitive. Where are you by the way Gary? Hope everything is good with you. I have many more questions.. little by little. Have fun! Keep painting.

R


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Gary sculptari
unregistered user
25-Oct-04, 06:39 PM (PST)
 
5. "RE: Like Fire"
In response to message #4
 
   I am in Vancouver - but have a significant and growing prescence in Mexico. I am in the middle of a major architectural restoration and expect to relocate once the project is finished, and I've got every last bit of mush from the trough. Then begin an endless summer (back and forth Vancouver and Mexico)

Believe me - no one except us contemporary romantics, wants their fresco to crack intentionally. I didn't know about the widespread cracks. SOmetimes, we run across cracks from road vibration or minor earthquakes too. The cracks are more likely to be caused by too little sand, or too fine sand. Cracks are caused by shrinkage or by physical disturbance

With the sand - the size is as important as much as its cleanliness and sharpness. We build concrete with large rocks, and then the layers get finer and finer sand towards the surface. If you want a slightly gritty final layer use 20/30 sand. If you want glass smooth use 00. The limestone sand, or dolomite sand, is chemically the same as marble sand - its all calcium carbonate - and then the minor impurities.


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