The Nepalese project sounds fascinating. Unfortunately, this is the lightest way for fresco panels which have to be moved around. Bear in mind, that this equals the strength of solid concrete about two inches thick! Without the mesh or fibreglass fibres (special alkali resistant or nylon) the piece will break easily at 1/2 inch. Concrete is just plain heavy, but the mesh technique at 7 lbs a square foot is not really too bad - you could still get a lot of product into a 20 foot shipping container. If someone suggests lightweight aggregate, like perlite, do not do it, it will severely weaken this fresco mix. Do not add polymers, they will interfere with suction and pigments.If you choose the fresco painting way, the edges can be chipped/antiqued, which ironically increases their "styling" value and also solves any chipping while shipping problems. There is also the "styling" issue of 'heft' - objects have to have a certain weight in the hand to affect "perceived value".

The Indian plaster artists are famous for their modelled lime "stucco". The recipe reads like a cake recipe - including eggs and sugar! Like many cultures they added hair to the mix to increase its strength. Like many cultures they painted frescos with natural pigments and painted the sculptures and temple ornaments. All ingredients should be available in India or China - even mesh!

In a past life I was a consultant for small manufacturing projects and I am also (slowly)setting up a small factory in Mexico. Believe me when I tell you that getting the items into the boxes will be the least of your problems! The biggest problems are quality control (a consistent, hand made product) and minimum orders of catalog companies/major retailers of 5 - 10,000 pieces. It takes them orders of this size just to 'grease the wheels' of their marketing machines. Just when you get it all figured out, someone in China will start silkscreening them onto dried slabs, touch them up by hand, and sell these vastly inferior copies for cheap to Target & Walmart. By then you will have moved on to a new project with your profits. Thats the game, at least as I understand it.

What a great article you produced, Gary! Even white cement sounds "limy". I still have doubts about adding it to intonaco, though. I would advise to set the panels into the metal (angle iron) frames for strength and hanging will be easier.

Also this "inferior" panel production for Walmart should be an excellent educational tool, as long as the panels will come with a little booklet on fresco - brief history and technique and to spice it up - www.truefresco.com printed all over (the last one is a joke)

Ilia Anossov

Thanks for your reply, it is really helpful.
Mexico, eh? We know some of those problems already since this business I mentioned ships large carved wooden architectural pieces from Nepal and there are indeed so many things to keep on top of....and they are ever changing!

As a reference to your comment about the Indian plaster artists I am copying the following for you which is the answer to my question to a Nepalese artist re: if he has ever done fresco....I thought you might get a kick out of it even though it doesn't sound like fresco in the end anyway....

Ist Method

"This is most traditional method. It needs black soil, coarse rice bran and cow
stool. The mixing ratio is know to the concerned technicians. They have to be mixed
together and keep is aside for one week. Then again mix the mixture well, prepare
paste of the composition and then paste it on the wall like cement. When it dries,
again paste another coat of fine mixure of black soil and cow stool for smooth
finishing. When it dries, then paint the wall with white lime. Again when it dries,
you can start your painting with stone colour. Alternatively, when the fine coat
dries, you can start painting without painting white wash. Such fesco paintings are
very very fine and remains for many centuries if they are properly cared. In Nepal,
most of the fesco painting is done in this way. Still we can see a lot of such
painting. But they are getting detoriated due to lack of proper care and maintenance."

Thanks again for your advice, and I am sure I will be asking for more shortly.....

By the way, you don't happen to be in the Northwest do you?

Karla

I can see how they are worried about shipping fresco.
This recipe works because the fibre holds it together, the alkalinity of the cow flop does not interfere with the lime, and as it cures, air can move through the piece, toughening the lime and moving any moisture.

I checked out some websites with Newari artwork - I think fresco is perfect for accomplishing brilliant colors because of the pure white background and highly concentrated pigments.

Am up in Vancouver (BC not WA). Thinking of a move to LA, leading to another move to Mexico, then up and down the coast in my Gypsy Wagon and Dog & Pony Roadshow . I'm one of the lucky ones, going from my first childhood, to my midlife crisis, to my second childhood, with nothing in between. Now if only people will buy my finger paintings.

Hi Karla!

We try to make our workshops affordable for anyone interested - if you pre-enroll you pay only $750 after the 25% pre-enrollment discount - you pay only when the official workshop date is established and everything is provided! Ilia Anossov teaches fresco painting techniques, Ian Hardwick - fresco plastering. Each student will receive a copy of the video taken during the workshop he/she attends. And two "lucky" students will be selected by independent judge (local museum representative or art professor) and will receive Best in Class cash award. Each student will also bring home their own fresco panel produced during the workshop. Not to mention that the workshop will take place in convenient for you town. For the moment we are planning 8 different locations for the spring of 2001.

For more info about the Fresco Workshop in Your Town program and currently available locations go to

http://www.truefresco.com/workshop

and if you have more questions ask them here, in the Cafe al Fresco in the Fresco Painting Workshop conference.

http://www.truefresco.com/cgidir/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID33&conf=DCConfID2
("About the Course" forum)

We researched other fresco workshop offers, that occasionally being taught around the country and average price is above $1200, plus you will have to travel there and pay for logging.

Try this. It will change your life AND teach you fresco.
Find some classical drawings, "monotone" studies, of the masters. An angel or cherub is a good easy subject - the idea is that you will be spending about one hour to paint, so nothing too complicated. Make a tracing about 20" x 16" (use a projector, grid, photocopier or scanner) and transfer it to some sort of paper than can be used over and over again (brown "butcher" paper with wax one side?). Get a coarse "pounce" wheel a graphic/sign supplier. Mark out the lines with wheel which makes small holes in the paper. Get a cloth bag of dark powder and dust over the fresh, but not sticky, last layer of "intonaco".
Paint the tracing with red oxide, or red ochre. For antiquing, wash on raw sienna with touches of raw umber. highlight the lines with raw umber. You are making a "sinopia" or underpainting. Only spend an hour, when it is cured fairly hard, try scratching in some faults, to show the under layer, add some more antiquing. If you are not happy with the result - scrape the whole damn thing off, start again tommorrow. It may take many tries until you get it the way you want- this is partly the reason for only spending one hour or so. When you are happy with it, make six more panels the same size, use the same drawing ("cartoon"), and the same technique, it should take you one long "artist's" day to finish. Now comes the important and hardest part. After they have cured up, take those six frescos out into the world and sell them - the retail price will be from $100 to $300. Try coffee shops, garden centers, craft shows, retailers, florists, on consignment if necessary (if the store is not paying you outright, and then doubling the price, the normal "commission" they get is 30%). There are some a little details I can fill you in on but the point is that this will get you started. Total startup cost - under $100 - so no opportunity for procrastination there. Lack of time - the other procrastinator- this advice will work whether you are learning to paint with your left foot or you are already a master fine artist, the only difference will be the time it takes from start to finish. You should be able to paint this cherub in your sleep by now, you can set up an easel in the park and sell three a day! This exercise will give you the gift of confidence, an artist's most powerful friend. It will lead to great things and many wonderful works of art.

Of course there are many details, but nothing which can't be handled over the internet or fax machine.

The only other point I should add

I wanted to say that you use the "hy-rib" mesh technique already mentioned for the fresco. The first coat of coarse stuff, which goes onto the mesh should be tinted with pigment, and don't worry too much about making it square. The effect should look like someone hacked it off a wall, this may even require "jags" cut into the mesh, to hold the cement into non straight edges. The second coat, of finer stuff, again tinted a complimentary color. The final two thin coats of finest stuff (20-25 minutes apart) in pure white please. Then you transfer your drawing. After the painting cures, you can lightly sand it with 100 grit sanding sponge, I prefer wet, and can chip away at different layers. You can also keep the final coat away from the edges of the second coat to give the piece a more obvious handmade look.

As Ilia pointed out, hanging is a problem. I make fiberglass frames but on the piece I am doing now, I looped stainless steel through the "hy rib" before plastering, I cut a small slot on my work surface so the piece would lie flat. You can get stainless steel "wire" from welding shops.

Maybe Ilia should consider a spot in the Cafe where we can download "copy right free" images suitable for beginner fresco artists such as myself? I guess downloading them from Cafe to home computer might be a problem? I found a program at www.sgdesigns.com called rapid resizer. You can take jpeg images, enter the dimensions you want, it then prints them out in panels the size you want. I found another program called "Fetch" which rips apart websites to give easy access to images. Again, do not use copyright images, and ask permission from photographers or graphic designers if you plan on referencing their work. For Virgin of Guadalupe, I am working on today, I cut them, and taped them, and then stuck a piece of kitchen shelving plastic on the back. Now back to work - its looking way too clean around here :=).

Great idea, Gary!
Let me know how it should be done. I mean what format? resolution? text? or just the image?

ilia

I mean jpeg images, like the one I sent you "Virgin of Guadalupe". I saved from a website, after clicking an enlargement. Why not start by posting this one - at least we have the Virgin's blessing to the project!It saves at about 165k, I have others, they seem to average 100 to 150k, are fairly low resolution. So I think a ceiling of 200k per image is more than adequate - you would have to have absolute discretion on what goes up, maybe even a delay so that you can confirm copyrights, or if you attract the juvenile crowd posting porn as a joke.

In this age of Napster/mp3's, I think the copyright issue is wide open. For example, www.antiquitiescollection.com, has 100's of fresco subjects, all can be downloaded as jpeg. They certainly don't own the copyrights, and I doubt that the fact they scanned them or merely posted them on their website, gives them any special rights. Besides, we are interpreting scans as references and education - they are printing them untouched to make a quick buck.

You know the mechanics of your site. I have no idea how much space this would take. I do have a good idea as to what people expect to see when they hear the word "fresco" - and they are not seeing on this website now.

When I started building this site (http://www.truefresco.com)
4 years ago, the idea was The Modern Fresco - technique, of cause the traditional, or better to say "Painting done on freshly laid wet lime plaster with pigments dissolved in lime water. As both dry they become completely integrated - a chemical reaction occurs in which calcium carbonate is formed as a result of carbon dioxide from the air combining with the calcium hydrate in the wet lime plaster". Any other way and it would not be a fresco.

Since than the idea did not change much if at all.

>I do have a
>good idea as to what
>people expect to see when
>they hear the word "fresco"
>- and they are not
>seeing on this website now.
>

I do not know what exactly do you mean by that. I think that, unfortunately, the majority of people do not think anything - they just do not know what the heck it means. Some people confuse fresco with mural some with the dinner.
If you meant that people think about the church and expect to see saints and stuff (don't get me wrong I am a Christian) - I conceder this a major setback, because - second thought would be old, antique therefore a thing of the past! I would be happier if people would expect to see Rivera, Orozco or Lucia Wiley.
If someone needs to see or copy the image of the classic fresco there are plenty of books written about it and images there are of far better quality then on the Internet.
We are here to "write a book" about the Modern Fresco and you, as I can see, are doing a splendid job!!! "Two thumbs up!"

OK ilia, enough with the "Propaganda" (talking to myself).

I think that to serve your idea of creating the "download section" we should look into our own resources - our own cartoons and frescoes, we can compliment them with the instructions and brief how-to. And as - your own words - "this forum matures" we will have a good collection and no copyright issues.

In regard to classic fresco I do agree with you that we should have a "reference gallery" in the Cafe. We have forum entitled "History of the Buon Fresco" created just for that. I already started a topic there, perhaps you've seen it.
A good gallery of images in it will be the thing to do and I will spend some time putting it together, however I want to use images from actual frescoes not of prints of a prints. This may be a copyright issue and I am planning to consult a museum on that. Luckily we got a great Thanksgiving present from the Museum of New Mexico - check this link:
http://museumeducation.org/curricula_activity_frescoes.html

If this as easy as you think (copyright) than it should be simple - just link your message to the image. Sample below:

This is a fresco - "Fortune Teller" (by me) 1996.

http(space)://

(space) - i stuck this into the code to stop it from bringing the image. If you remove the (space) than the image, just like the one above will show.
This image is on this site, but it could be on any other site on the Net.
This way we all can contribute - link the message to the imge you like and post.

Downloading is easy - just copy and paste - point the cursor on the image click the right mouse button, select and click copy. Open any folder on your hard drive, point cursor over the list of files in the folder window, click the right mouse button, select paste and click. You are done file is in. Try this with the image above.

I think that I have to write letters to the museums for the permission to use classic fresco images from their collection - to each museum separate. Can you help me with that - my English at times is, lets say confusing?

ilia anossov
http://www.truefresco.com/anossov

It is my words that are confusing, I am sorry for that. I think where we are miscommunicating is that I am looking at fresco as a fine craft - which can be used by fine artists. Your experience, quite rightly, treats fresco as a fine art technique with a noble heritage.

So, for example, when I talk of posting cartoons/reference photos, I mean for people who are approaching fresco as a craft - much like stained glass or mosaic for example. For these people, which includes myself at this point, I "borrow" from the classic masters so I might learn the techniques. When I am ready to transform my own clumsy drawings and artistic concepts into original artwork - including principles of foreshortening, perspective, color theory, etc - I will be much more at ease. Right now, it is enough for me to know that I like certain fresco pieces - WHY I like them only becomes apparent to me as I carefully dissect and reproduce them. This is another point about fresco - I now know that photos can never duplicate their mysterious beauty. I also know that many pieces cannot be purchased at any price. The alternative is to attempt to recreate them - and, unlike oil or acrylic, this is a genuine option with fresco.

I do not know if others are interested in fresco as a fine craft. My advice to Karla, and comments in general, have been made with this mindset.

You do wonderful work Ilia, you do not need me to tell you that. I get the sense you would like to extend fresco to a wider audience, the fine craft approach will certainly do that. Unfortunately, most people do not have 1/10th of the talent and creativity that you have - if you could offer a "fresco-paint-by-numbers" set they would fly off the shelves! You would be giving the people an opportunity to substitute technique for talent. This approach is worthy of criticism but this is how people learn. Music - you always learn others music before (and if) you ever create your own. Writing, Cooking, - all the same. It is only in learning sculpture and painting that we say "here's a brush or chisel - create an original piece of work".

Hi Gary! Now we really confused each other! I do see and celebrate the fine craft approach. It will benefit many causes - educational, popularization of fresco, a constant remainder on the broad level that the art of fresco did not pass away together with the great masters of the past. I was just putting a few words for not having much of a visual reference to the great masters on this site, mainly due to the luck of time and support. Got defensive so to speak.

I know how to paint a fresco and not too much about how to communicate with the art establishment and business people. I was serious when saying that I consider my English confusing and maybe you can help me with those letters I mentioned.

Your input into the fresco enthusiasm, its revival and this forum is tremendous. I will be the first one to praise and celebrate it! I also have to greet you for the courage to speak clearly about the art from the practical point of view. An ability that not many of us posses and even less of us do exercise.
Talking big words, as most us do, is one thing - following those words is the other. With your enthusiasm and persistence - You do show people the way of how to do it!

We should get easels and go to the parks, I am not just saying this, but speaking from the experience. I spent 5 years with the easel on the streets of Moscow with my teacher V. Ovchinnicov. I was his apprentice. I was studying watercolour and selling the "produced" right where it was painted and as it was painted. The proceeds enabled me to support the studio and the group of artists around me who were too "clever to get their hands dirty with practicality", and with the "invention" of the Perestroika organized exhibitions and published two catalogs. What a sore thumb i mast have been for the establishment. They refused to give me the visa to go to Art Academy in Helsinki (Finland) unless I join the official Russian Art Union. Did I join the "Union"? Fat chance - I opened two art galleries instead.

We got too far off the subject - "white cement" - can you give the ratio? I was fascinated with the simplicity of your "board making" - the one with just the mesh (i can not visualize the fiberglass yet - imagination of the painter, sometimes limited). I am thinking of employing it for my workshops - if you do not mind?

Gary lets move the "philosophy" to the "History of the Buon Fresco"? We have there topic "The history of Western Art might have to be rewritten...". It is about the newly discovered fresco by Cavallini that challenges Giotto's position of being the father of Western Art. That should be a good place for a little "sword fight". What do you think?

very funny about the ice skating and beer and banjo thing!

ok... so i am impatient!!! yes i want to learn it all right away....
but in all sincerity, thank you. your advice is very well taken and tommorrow i am trying another one so i will try some of what you are saying....not on the mesh yet but next time i will try that.

what i tried on the one i did yesterday is actually on the right track and pretty close to a lot of what you are saying...it is a copy of a piece of a mural from the Ajanta caves in India.

there are a few things i'm not clear on, like how wet can i apply the pigment during the various stages of the plaster drying. are there "rules" in regards to this. this is my major question at the moment. i was inclined to do a lot of pretty heavy washes at the beginning while the plaster was still wet, but couldn't tell if the plaster was too wet when i started, if making it wetter was detrimental, how the ammount of pigment i was applying would read as it dried, etc.

also, my thought is that one should start with washes and then proceed to shading and details as it dries, is this correct and are there periods of waiting for the plaster to absorb in between...being a bit impatient and enthusiastic, i was kind of doing everything at the same time. i also couldn't really tell if it was drying or not, etc. etc!!!

aside from that, i love the idea of the layers showing through and how to treat the edges. one of the things that is very exciting to me about this medium is how much it seems you can play with the layers in terms of antiquing. i have been concentrating for a while on creating reproduction antique thangkas (tibetan painted scrolls) on fine canvas with mineral pigments. i really do try to express the aged quality and the ancient feeling of originals in a refined way, but this fresco thing really hits it so much more easily and effectively and really resonates with my own sensiblilty and vision.

the idea of selling them...well part of the pressure in learning this quickly is the whole nepali project i mentioned earlier. the person who heads up that business is very ambitious and with a big vision for incorporating frescos into his business, wanting me to forge ahead with that, and also wanting me to start with a 6' x 4' piece and have it done by january for a show in san francisco to see if people would be interested.... well i am not ruling out the possibilty, and that is why i'm pushing to learn with a bit more urgency.

so my motto for the time is...do and learn as much as i can, while keeping on top of my other projects... and enjoy it completely while i'm doing it!

anyway, thank you again for your ongoing support...i will keep you posted and will undoubtedly keep the stack of questions high....
and next time you have a beer... think of me!

very sincerely,
karla

Hi Karla!
Plaster does not "dry" - it sets. To be exact it sets first and then water, that is in the plaster evaporates. You can wet the "dry" plaster afterwards and it will absorb water and then water will evaporate, and you can do it over and over again and it will not "melt" the plaster. I am not "chasing" terms - it is important to understand that we are talking about two different things/processes - setting and evaporating of the water (drying)
What important is the first one - setting or carbonization.
You can only pain fresco while this "setting" is not yet complete - plaster may still look "wet" 3 days after it sets.
The sign of when you should stop painting is when plaster "locks up" - applied color starts to look "bleachy" as you apply it. If the plaster is done right you should have several hours before it happens. However there are many signs and details to that, one can learn them only through practicing.
Taking a workshop is important - you will see how to do it right and will be able to use that experience to evaluate your work after. You need a reference - to see where you are going other way it is like walking in the blind, you will eventually succeed by trial and error but for the show in January it may be tricky.

The steps for painting are the same as for any other medium underpainting + values and shadows + colour + detail. On a large giornata mixes mast be "wetter" at the beginning and at the end of the day. Middle of the day falls on the end of "values and shadows" + 2/3 - 3/4 of the "colour". It is a basic layout - every wall/panel has its own "life"/nuances.

Check http://www.truefresco.com/technique.html for a step-by-step demonstration of the painting of a fresco panel.

Good luck and thank you for the kind words!

ilia

thank you for your clarification about the setting up process of the plaster. today i did my second fresco and it was quite a bit larger than the first quite a bit more frustrating as well! it is hard for me to tell if the plaster is too wet to begin with, which is my feeling....anyway, like you and gary both say i think it's a process of a lot of experimentation til i get the feel, but also at some point clearly classes would be good for me. particularly when thinking of doing large pieces....

after the plaster is completely set up and no longer active, is it still possible to paint "secco" on top of what is there? in other words, the first piece i did really dried quite a bit lighter than i expected. could i do washes over this, perhaps adding rabbit skin glue to the pigment as a binder?

you are both helping me so much with your advice. again, i am really grateful for that...

sincerely,
karla

Please appreciate that I am going through exactly what you are! The wet plaster "problem" - same as me - I was worried it would set up before the pigment sunk in. In hindsight, a stylised sun, to go fulltime in a wet garden, took me about hour and half to paint a 16" x 16" panel, I had a lot more time then I ever expected, even with white cement in the intonaco. I have given it to my sister for a weathering test at the core of the rain forest - eastern Vancouver Island, BC.

For a 4ft x 6ft piece, to be painted and sold as a portable, this raises a number of issues. Firstly, at about 175 lbs (7-8 lbs a sq ft) you better start doing hard time at your local gym if you expect to handle it yourself! Secondly, you will have to fabricate a custom painting easel - perhaps based on a sculpting stand or one of those Black & Decker "Workmates". Thirdly, make sure you construct a sturdy packing crate, so it might be shipped in one piece - make sure the customer pays for it in the pricing. Truck freight is quite cheap, but if it is not packed in a precise way it cannot be covered by insurance - beware of this fact.

All for now. I was thinking of sculpting some Sri Lanka temple gaurdstones - do you know anybody interested? Evil persons who come to your door are turned to archeological goo by an ancient hindu curse - yikes but useful.

just a thought - do you know that fresco goes "wacky" for a few days, a week or so, after it is painted? The next day fresco begins to "dry", the colour of the plaster changes from gray to white and since the plaster is under the paint/colour what you see is the colours go crazy (not always) and for a few days it may look really bad. This is called the "drying challenge".
I go through it every time - the one can not get used to it.
But remember in a week or 10 days fresco will pull itself back together, and will look exactly as it did when you set down the brush and said "Its done I like it" on the day of painting. It will be just a shade softer. So wait and do not panic.

In regards to secco - you have to wait a few month before it is safe to retouch fresco with the secco method. Plaster must be completely cured by then.
Take an egg separate white from yolk - you can use ether but not both, unless you plan to make an omelet.
I like whites more, so will brief you on them.
Take egg whites (enough for the project, figure that by practice) put them into the toll glass container and whisk them, will get a cloudy foamy stuff. Put this "stuff" into refrigerator (not a freezer) over night. Next day carefully - do not shake - take the container out of the fridge - the "stuffy stuff" will sink to the bottom, the clear stuff will be on the top. You will need the clear stuff - pour it into the separate container. Mix the clear stuff with vinegar (not the fruity one)
regular vinegar 3% solution, lets say in proportion of 2-3 parts of vinegar to one part of clear stuff (from egg white) - you can adjust the proportion to your preference.
Grind your pigments in this mixture and paint.
Ilia
http://www.truefresco.com/workshop

karla

<The sign of when you should
<stop painting is when plaster "locks up"
<- applied color starts to look "bleachy"
<as you apply it.

Plaster may and should appear "wet" for 2-3 days, however it has already set on the first day!
One more "trick" (for the day of painting) press plaster lightly with your finger - if it "gives" (dents) you can paint if it appears hard - should stop.
If you paint after the plaster had set, the pigment will just fall off as soon as it dries - there is no binder in fresco - pigment must be incorporated within the "lime crystal" during its formation (during the setting).

Properly plastered and painted fresco should have a little sheen of its own.

Hi Karla!

This is a tough question! You, perhaps, noticed that some areas a moist and some are not so. There are countless amount of combinations that can determine the plaster/painting behaviors and steps that you have to take - with a fare amount of experiments and practice you will do it by hart.
This is one of the major reasons for our workshops. You must know how every layer of the plaster will affect the final layer - intonaco and the painting process. At the workshop we will show how to prepare the plaster and what to do to control the it while painting. The book or written instructions can only give you the general outline of the process, plus some general "error signs". You need to see and follow an experienced person to get a "feel" of what to do or there is always an option of trial and error.

Ilia
Fresco Workshop in Your Town Program
http://www.truefresco.com/workshop

I was really interested to read about your efforts at fresco. I am training to be a plasterer and as such I've done quite a bit of research into fresco production. I have never heard of using cement as a basis for fresco - where did you hear of this?

The minimum of base coats required is 3 and they consist of lime putty and different grades of sand (or aggregate). In ordinary plastering sand, lime and cement are used but the lime involved is a different type to the one used for fresco and has different properties.

I also have a qualification in art and would be happy to advise you further if you like.

thanks for your advice....i am getting ready to make another go for it on the large fresco....i will let you know later in the week if it's a smooth one or not!

karla