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Subject: "on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime an..."     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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karla
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"on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
 
   I am trying to teach myself how to do frescos... with the help of this website and the knowledgable people here I think I will do so much better than I initially anticipated.... I was so happy to find you!

I am starting with a small panel, 24" X 16" and would like to know any opinions on whether I can use mortar mix instead of cement in the rough coat, and also am wanting to know if on a small panel of this size it is necessary to add the cement into the mixture of lime and rough sand. The percentage I used is 8 parts sand to 5 parts slaked lime....

Any help on this subject, on the ground and on how to prepare it ---- especially for use on panels of any size will be greatly appreciated. I would also like to hear what kind of materials people are using for the panel itself.

Thank you so much and looking forward to hearing from you all...

Karla


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Gary sculptari 04-Dec-00 1
  RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 04-Dec-00 2
     RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Gary sculptari 04-Dec-00 3
         RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Iliamoderator 04-Dec-00 4
         RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 05-Dec-00 5
             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Gary sculptari 05-Dec-00 6
                 RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 05-Dec-00 7
                     RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... adminadmin 05-Dec-00 8
                     RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Gary sculptari 06-Dec-00 9
                         RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Gary sculptari 06-Dec-00 10
                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Iliamoderator 06-Dec-00 11
                                 RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Gary sculptari 06-Dec-00 12
                                     RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Iliamoderator 07-Dec-00 15
                                         RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Gary sculptari (Guest) 07-Dec-00 17
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Iliamoderator 07-Dec-00 18
                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 06-Dec-00 13
                                 RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 06-Dec-00 14
                                 RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Iliamoderator 07-Dec-00 16
                                     RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 08-Dec-00 19
                                         RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Gary sculptari 08-Dec-00 20
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 08-Dec-00 21
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Iliamoderator 09-Dec-00 22
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 09-Dec-00 23
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Iliamoderator 09-Dec-00 24
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 09-Dec-00 25
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Yoram Neder 11-Dec-00 26
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Iliamoderator 11-Dec-00 27
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 11-Dec-00 28
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... suzie 25-Jan-01 29
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... Myriam (Guest) 25-Feb-01 30
                                             RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lim... karla 25-Feb-01 31

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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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1. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #0
 
   Hi Karla! Good to see you are still trying too.

The reason that fresco is so difficult today is that the skills needed have been split by our modern world - plasterers are tradespeople, artists are usually painters. Fresco requires both. I would like now suggest there is another trade you have to know - lathing!

Lath is the secret to strong plaster and stucco cement. The old day walls were built thicker and thicker for strength, but this does not work, the Sistine Chapel proved that. Some sort of mesh, whether it is wood saplings and reeds, or high tech graphite fibre mesh, drastically improves the strength of the piece.

For fresco practise, I have been using expanded galvanized metal mesh lath, with 3/8" ribs running every four inches. It is called "Hy-Rib" and will be available from any stucco/plaster supplier. It may be difficult to get home, it is usually in 27" x 96" size, it can only roll up lengthwise. Cut out your panel sizes using tin snips, make sure you wear work gloves when cutting and handling. Place the pieces, "pointy side down" on a plastic covered table, do not worry too much if they twist and bend, the weight of the mortar should hold them down. Now fill the mesh with the mortar. I recommend adding white cement to the mortar for this "scratch coat" it is the backbone of the piece, you want it good and stiff for the next coats, and you cannot wait the long time that a 100% lime mortar will take to cure for "portable" panels. Still use lime putty as a "plasticizer"(to help work in the coarse sand with less water), and to improve "suction" (the ability of the piece to "pull" water through from the final coat and therefore working time). For small painting surfaces, like you describe, I add white cement at all coats, in lesser and lesser amounts, because I do not need the working time and I want to make absolutely sure the piece will stand up in a garden environment (up here in the Pacific Rainforest). I think my frescos could go in a swimming pool!

Just slightly "overfill" the lath by about 1/8",no metal should be showing, the plastic will stop it sticking to the table. Brush the surface to make it rough. If you are doing this
indoors, place a plastic bag over the piece(s)and wait a couple of days. You are now ready for the "brown coat" which is smooth with coarse sand (finer than scratch coat) and the "finishing coat" - in our case intonaco 100% lime putty and fine marble sand/dust. The nice thing about this technique is that you can prepare a whole bunch of mesh boards at once, wet them down the night before the brown coat, etc.

Once you get used to the lath technique, you can also make curves, or hang the lath on walls, ceilings, etc. The skilled plasterers apply the scratch coat to the lath using just enough pressure that the plaster "keys" through the back of the mesh. Whole rooms and whole buildings are constructed in this way and it has proven the test of time. Plasterers usually have the lathers come in ahead of time to do this work - so can a fresco artist if he/she is experienced with the plastering.

I hope this helps - it is not THE answer, you will find your own way with the materials and skills you have available in your area. If it seems like a lot of work, calculate how much $ per sq ft painting area you are getting compared to gesso canvas or watercolor paper and that fresco is beautiful interior or exterior.


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karla
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04-Dec-00, 06:55 PM (PST)
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2. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #0
 
   Dear Gary

Thanks so much for getting back to me so quickly, and with such a comprehensive reply. The gentleman that recomended this site to me is a friend of mine here in Oregon who is a (mostly paper) restorer, named Jack Thompson ....but besides that he knows a lot about techniques involved in many of the various kinds of ancient artistic traditions.

Anyway, he told me also about using metal lath, but I didn't get this detailed a description. He had said for the small one, since it is a test panel in which i mostly want to get a feel for the materials he didn't think I should bother...but it is definately what I will do the next try.

Another question...maybe you have some advice on. We have an idea of creating these paintings with Newari artists in Nepal. We are a little concerned over shipping issues, especially differences in humdity and shifts in temperature levels from there to this country. Are there special considerations to be made in a situation like this, such as not adding any water to the mixtures...and could they be created on any kind of a lighter weight material (than marine plywood for example) that wouldn't compromise the quality and or create more opportunity for cracking or warpage....

Thank you so much for taking the time and for helping those of us who are just beginning to wade in the shallow waters of such a wonderful deep tradition....

Very sincerely,
Karla Refojo


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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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3. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #2
 
   A fellow rainforest dweller!

The Nepalese project sounds fascinating. Unfortunately, this is the lightest way for fresco panels which have to be moved around. Bear in mind, that this equals the strength of solid concrete about two inches thick! Without the mesh or fibreglass fibres (special alkali resistant or nylon) the piece will break easily at 1/2 inch. Concrete is just plain heavy, but the mesh technique at 7 lbs a square foot is not really too bad - you could still get a lot of product into a 20 foot shipping container. If someone suggests lightweight aggregate, like perlite, do not do it, it will severely weaken this fresco mix. Do not add polymers, they will interfere with suction and pigments.If you choose the fresco painting way, the edges can be chipped/antiqued, which ironically increases their "styling" value and also solves any chipping while shipping problems. There is also the "styling" issue of 'heft' - objects have to have a certain weight in the hand to affect "perceived value".

The Indian plaster artists are famous for their modelled lime "stucco". The recipe reads like a cake recipe - including eggs and sugar! Like many cultures they added hair to the mix to increase its strength. Like many cultures they painted frescos with natural pigments and painted the sculptures and temple ornaments. All ingredients should be available in India or China - even mesh!

In a past life I was a consultant for small manufacturing projects and I am also (slowly)setting up a small factory in Mexico. Believe me when I tell you that getting the items into the boxes will be the least of your problems! The biggest problems are quality control (a consistent, hand made product) and minimum orders of catalog companies/major retailers of 5 - 10,000 pieces. It takes them orders of this size just to 'grease the wheels' of their marketing machines. Just when you get it all figured out, someone in China will start silkscreening them onto dried slabs, touch them up by hand, and sell these vastly inferior copies for cheap to Target & Walmart. By then you will have moved on to a new project with your profits. Thats the game, at least as I understand it.


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Iliamoderator
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4. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #3
 
Hi Gary and Welcome Karla!

What a great article you produced, Gary! Even white cement sounds "limy". I still have doubts about adding it to intonaco, though. I would advise to set the panels into the metal (angle iron) frames for strength and hanging will be easier.

Also this "inferior" panel production for Walmart should be an excellent educational tool, as long as the panels will come with a little booklet on fresco - brief history and technique and to spice it up - www.truefresco.com printed all over (the last one is a joke)

Ilia Anossov


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karla
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05-Dec-00, 08:37 AM (PST)
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5. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #3
 
   Dear Gary,

Thanks for your reply, it is really helpful.
Mexico, eh? We know some of those problems already since this business I mentioned ships large carved wooden architectural pieces from Nepal and there are indeed so many things to keep on top of....and they are ever changing!

As a reference to your comment about the Indian plaster artists I am copying the following for you which is the answer to my question to a Nepalese artist re: if he has ever done fresco....I thought you might get a kick out of it even though it doesn't sound like fresco in the end anyway....

Ist Method

"This is most traditional method. It needs black soil, coarse rice bran and cow
stool. The mixing ratio is know to the concerned technicians. They have to be mixed
together and keep is aside for one week. Then again mix the mixture well, prepare
paste of the composition and then paste it on the wall like cement. When it dries,
again paste another coat of fine mixure of black soil and cow stool for smooth
finishing. When it dries, then paint the wall with white lime. Again when it dries,
you can start your painting with stone colour. Alternatively, when the fine coat
dries, you can start painting without painting white wash. Such fesco paintings are
very very fine and remains for many centuries if they are properly cared. In Nepal,
most of the fesco painting is done in this way. Still we can see a lot of such
painting. But they are getting detoriated due to lack of proper care and maintenance."

Thanks again for your advice, and I am sure I will be asking for more shortly.....

By the way, you don't happen to be in the Northwest do you?

Karla


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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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6. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #5
 
   Thats a great recipe Karla.

I can see how they are worried about shipping fresco.
This recipe works because the fibre holds it together, the alkalinity of the cow flop does not interfere with the lime, and as it cures, air can move through the piece, toughening the lime and moving any moisture.

I checked out some websites with Newari artwork - I think fresco is perfect for accomplishing brilliant colors because of the pure white background and highly concentrated pigments.

Am up in Vancouver (BC not WA). Thinking of a move to LA, leading to another move to Mexico, then up and down the coast in my Gypsy Wagon and Dog & Pony Roadshow . I'm one of the lucky ones, going from my first childhood, to my midlife crisis, to my second childhood, with nothing in between. Now if only people will buy my finger paintings.


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karla
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05-Dec-00, 05:41 PM (PST)
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7. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #6
 
   hey... do you ever teach?
like a weekend workshop or something.....if i could find a way up to vancouver that is....
or if not, do you know of anyone around here that does (haven't been able to find anyone at all) or a video i could watch. i tried a small fresco today, had lots of fun, but realize if i could even just watch someone for a day i would learn so so much.
i know cafe al fresco has the workshops but they are a bit too expensive for my budget....


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adminadmin click here to view user rating
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8. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #7
 
>i know cafe al fresco has
>the workshops but they are
>a bit too expensive for
>my budget....


Hi Karla!

We try to make our workshops affordable for anyone interested - if you pre-enroll you pay only $750 after the 25% pre-enrollment discount - you pay only when the official workshop date is established and everything is provided! Ilia Anossov teaches fresco painting techniques, Ian Hardwick - fresco plastering. Each student will receive a copy of the video taken during the workshop he/she attends. And two "lucky" students will be selected by independent judge (local museum representative or art professor) and will receive Best in Class cash award. Each student will also bring home their own fresco panel produced during the workshop. Not to mention that the workshop will take place in convenient for you town. For the moment we are planning 8 different locations for the spring of 2001.

For more info about the Fresco Workshop in Your Town program and currently available locations go to

http://www.truefresco.com/workshop

and if you have more questions ask them here, in the Cafe al Fresco in the Fresco Painting Workshop conference.

http://www.truefresco.com/cgidir/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID33&conf=DCConfID2
("About the Course" forum)

We researched other fresco workshop offers, that occasionally being taught around the country and average price is above $1200, plus you will have to travel there and pay for logging.



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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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9. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #7
 
   Thats a good one Karla! Buy me a beer and I'll teach you how to ice skate and play the banjo too. This fresco stuff has to be learned by doing - no real secret tricks. I am not much longer along the learning curve than you. I suggest you(we) save your(our) workshop money until you reach the point where you have some real tough questions.

Try this. It will change your life AND teach you fresco.
Find some classical drawings, "monotone" studies, of the masters. An angel or cherub is a good easy subject - the idea is that you will be spending about one hour to paint, so nothing too complicated. Make a tracing about 20" x 16" (use a projector, grid, photocopier or scanner) and transfer it to some sort of paper than can be used over and over again (brown "butcher" paper with wax one side?). Get a coarse "pounce" wheel a graphic/sign supplier. Mark out the lines with wheel which makes small holes in the paper. Get a cloth bag of dark powder and dust over the fresh, but not sticky, last layer of "intonaco".
Paint the tracing with red oxide, or red ochre. For antiquing, wash on raw sienna with touches of raw umber. highlight the lines with raw umber. You are making a "sinopia" or underpainting. Only spend an hour, when it is cured fairly hard, try scratching in some faults, to show the under layer, add some more antiquing. If you are not happy with the result - scrape the whole damn thing off, start again tommorrow. It may take many tries until you get it the way you want- this is partly the reason for only spending one hour or so. When you are happy with it, make six more panels the same size, use the same drawing ("cartoon"), and the same technique, it should take you one long "artist's" day to finish. Now comes the important and hardest part. After they have cured up, take those six frescos out into the world and sell them - the retail price will be from $100 to $300. Try coffee shops, garden centers, craft shows, retailers, florists, on consignment if necessary (if the store is not paying you outright, and then doubling the price, the normal "commission" they get is 30%). There are some a little details I can fill you in on but the point is that this will get you started. Total startup cost - under $100 - so no opportunity for procrastination there. Lack of time - the other procrastinator- this advice will work whether you are learning to paint with your left foot or you are already a master fine artist, the only difference will be the time it takes from start to finish. You should be able to paint this cherub in your sleep by now, you can set up an easel in the park and sell three a day! This exercise will give you the gift of confidence, an artist's most powerful friend. It will lead to great things and many wonderful works of art.

Of course there are many details, but nothing which can't be handled over the internet or fax machine.

The only other point I should add


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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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10. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #9
 
   Oops. Selected Post instead of Preview.

I wanted to say that you use the "hy-rib" mesh technique already mentioned for the fresco. The first coat of coarse stuff, which goes onto the mesh should be tinted with pigment, and don't worry too much about making it square. The effect should look like someone hacked it off a wall, this may even require "jags" cut into the mesh, to hold the cement into non straight edges. The second coat, of finer stuff, again tinted a complimentary color. The final two thin coats of finest stuff (20-25 minutes apart) in pure white please. Then you transfer your drawing. After the painting cures, you can lightly sand it with 100 grit sanding sponge, I prefer wet, and can chip away at different layers. You can also keep the final coat away from the edges of the second coat to give the piece a more obvious handmade look.

As Ilia pointed out, hanging is a problem. I make fiberglass frames but on the piece I am doing now, I looped stainless steel through the "hy rib" before plastering, I cut a small slot on my work surface so the piece would lie flat. You can get stainless steel "wire" from welding shops.

Maybe Ilia should consider a spot in the Cafe where we can download "copy right free" images suitable for beginner fresco artists such as myself? I guess downloading them from Cafe to home computer might be a problem? I found a program at www.sgdesigns.com called rapid resizer. You can take jpeg images, enter the dimensions you want, it then prints them out in panels the size you want. I found another program called "Fetch" which rips apart websites to give easy access to images. Again, do not use copyright images, and ask permission from photographers or graphic designers if you plan on referencing their work. For Virgin of Guadalupe, I am working on today, I cut them, and taped them, and then stuck a piece of kitchen shelving plastic on the back. Now back to work - its looking way too clean around here :=).


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Iliamoderator
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11. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #10
 
<Maybe Ilia should consider
<a spot in the Cafe where we
<can download "copy right free"
<images suitable for beginner
<fresco artists

Great idea, Gary!
Let me know how it should be done. I mean what format? resolution? text? or just the image?

ilia


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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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12. "RE: on whether it is necessary to add cement to the lime and sand mix on the rough coat"
In response to message #11
 
   Hi Ilia,
I keep coming inside to get warm bb-r-r-r-r.

I mean jpeg images, like the one I sent you "Virgin of Guadalupe". I saved from a website, after clicking an enlargement. Why not start by posting this one - at least we have the Virgin's blessing to the project!It saves at about 165k, I have others, they seem to average 100 to 150k, are fairly low resolution. So I think a ceiling of 200k per image is more than adequate - you would have to have absolute discretion on what goes up, maybe even a delay so that you can confirm copyrights, or if you attract the juvenile crowd posting porn as a joke.

In this age of Napster/mp3's, I think the copyright issue is wide open. For example, www.antiquitiescollection.com, has 100's of fresco subjects, all can be downloaded as jpeg. They certainly don't own the copyrights, and I doubt that the fact they scanned them or merely posted them on their website, gives them any special rights. Besides, we are interpreting scans as references and education - they are printing them untouched to make a quick buck.

You know the mechanics of your site. I have no idea how much space this would take. I do have a good idea as to what people expect to see when they hear the word "fresco" - and they are not seeing on this website now.


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Iliamoderator
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