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Subject: ""Tasting" the plaster?"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Bobo America
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23-Mar-01, 07:42 AM (PST)
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""Tasting" the plaster?"
 
   After I posted "Beer, fresco and increased sales" in this forum, I visited the brewery to see Fra. Davydov's work.

His St. Arnold is very appealing, the colors are lush and the design of his garments traditionally iconic and decorative.

The folks who watched Fra. Davydov work said he was experiencing severe stomach problems, though, because he followed a tradition of tasting the plaster to determine its suitability for being painted. And the lime was causing him digestive pain.

Can this be correct? Does one taste the plaster?

Secondly, I was surprised to see brush marks in the colors in the fresco. Is this typical? (I've yet to try a fresco; still investigating.)

Thanks.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: "Tasting" the plaster? Iliamoderator 23-Mar-01 1
     RE: "Tasting" the plaster? Bobo America 30-Mar-01 4
         Crosshatching Iliamoderator 30-Mar-01 5
  RE: "Tasting" the plaster? Gary sculptari 24-Mar-01 2
     Lime versus Gypsum for Fresco Iliamoderator 25-Mar-01 3
         RE: Lime versus Gypsum for Fresco Gary sculptari 31-Mar-01 6
             RE: Lime versus Gypsum for Fresco Iliamoderator 31-Mar-01 7
                 RE: Pigments & White Cement Gary sculptari 01-Apr-01 8
                     RE: Pigments Iliamoderator 01-Apr-01 9
                         RE: Pigments Gary sculptari 01-Apr-01 10
                         RE: Pigments Gary sculptari 04-Apr-01 11
                             RE: Pigments Yoram Neder 04-Apr-01 12

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Iliamoderator
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1. "RE: "Tasting" the plaster?"
In response to message #0
 
There are many tricks - some of them, like tasting plaster are on a border of being superstitious. I taste paint for lime. Human sences are the mysteriose thing, tast is perhaps one of the most trasted, so you have to tast a thing to be sure that it is right - even if it does not make any sence.

Brush strocks in fresco are en essential part, in fact only fresco gives such thin strokes that of a single hair. This is due to the vehicle - water - the thinnest of them all. Even watercolour has gum-arabic as a binder - Fresco is a pure water.

Ilia


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Bobo America
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4. "RE: "Tasting" the plaster?"
In response to message #1
 
   Thanks, Ilia.

And I guess the brushstrokes indicate why crosshatching is mentioned in many instructions.


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Iliamoderator
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5. "Crosshatching"
In response to message #4
 
Hi Bobo,

Yes, fresco is like "drawing with colour". Plaster is very delicate and sensitive to the amount of water it receives through the brush. Washes, without the risk of "braking the skin" and "digging in" are not quite possible. The building of a colour and tone is done through "weaving" and crosshatching layer after layer.


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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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2. "RE: "Tasting" the plaster?"
In response to message #0
 
   Now this is an interesting question, normally a plasterer working in brewery would be suffering a sore tummy (and head) from too much beer sampling! Plasterers & painters are known in the trades for their love of the suds. Stale beer was actually added to lime plaster as a "sizing" agent - this would be similar to adding gum arabic, it acts like a glue, helping it stick to walls and also forming a "skin" on the surface to make sure the gypsum is properly hydrated.

Another possible purpose to tasting the plaster is that sugar may have been added to the lime. For some reason sugar causes the lime to accept up 14 times more water - at the price of substantially weakening it at this high level. This would not be an issue with me and my home made, high calcite lime putty, but if you were ordering the "white gold" putty from Europe, you may want to check if it has been sugared/extended by tasting, but I doubt that any company would risk its reputation with this trick.


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Iliamoderator
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3. "Lime versus Gypsum for Fresco"
In response to message #2
 
>Stale beer
>was actually added to lime
>plaster as a "sizing" agent
>- this would be similar
>to adding gum arabic, it
>acts like a glue, helping
>it stick to walls and
>also forming a "skin" on
>the surface to make sure
>the gypsum is properly hydrated.
>
>
Hi Gary!

I hope you do not mind, but I had to clarify this, about the gypsum. It might be confusing.

Gypsum plasters are used for ornamentation elements and such.

Gypsum is a big enemy of the fresco, fresco plaster should contain nothing but lime putty and sand (or sand and marble dust, volcanic "sand"). Fresco needs calcium oxide not calcium sulfate. Lime, in Italian called "calce" - calcium.

GYPSUM - : a widely distributed mineral consisting of hydrous calcium sulfate that is used esp. as a soil amendment and in making plaster of paris.

sulfates - : a salt or ester of sulfuric acid
salt is a death sentence for fresco.


LIME - : a caustic highly infusible solid that consists of calcium oxide often together with magnesium oxide, that is obtained by calcining forms of calcium carbonate (as shells or limestone), and that is used in building (as in mortar and plaster) and in agriculture -- called also quicklime.

For fresco we should look for lime without magnesium (causes fluorescence and weakens the plaster.

Ilia Anossov
fresco painter, sculptor
http://www.truefresco.com/workshop

>Another possible purpose to tasting the
>plaster is that sugar may
>have been added to the
>lime. For some reason sugar
>causes the lime to accept
>up 14 times more water
>- at the price of
>substantially weakening it at this
>high level. This would not
>be an issue with me
>and my home made, high
>calcite lime putty, but if
>you were ordering the "white
>gold" putty from Europe, you
>may want to check if
>it has been sugared/extended by
>tasting, but I doubt that
>any company would risk its
>reputation with this trick.

This is a good thing to now! Thanks for the advice. Here goes my stomach!!!



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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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6. "RE: Lime versus Gypsum for Fresco"
In response to message #3
 
   Yes Ilia, sorry about adding gypsum to the mental mix. I believe they have found some present in the Greek frescoes at Knossos though. It was never used outside.

If the salts are that bad, (((sulfates - : a salt or ester of sulfuric acid - salt is a death sentence for fresco.)) you might be wary of using Blanc Fixe for your whites - its true name is barium sulfate.

Just sending off my new pigment order - going to try a bunch of new fresco colors (to me anyway).


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Iliamoderator
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7. "RE: Lime versus Gypsum for Fresco"
In response to message #6
 
>Yes Ilia, sorry about adding gypsum
>to the mental mix. I
>believe they have found some
>present in the Greek
>frescoes at Knossos though. It
>was never used outside.

It would be great if you can post parts of that article here. So our collection grows for everybody!


you might
>be wary of using Blanc
>Fixe for your whites -
>its true name is barium
>sulfate.
>
Totaly right. I personally do not use any other white except "bianco sangiovani" (could never learn the spelling.)
This is the fancy word for dried and ground into powder lime putty.
I think, I have posted this in other thread "use of white in fresco"

i found the link

http://www.truefresco.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/41.html#5

Ilia.

which pigments are you getting?


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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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8. "RE: Pigments & White Cement"
In response to message #7
 
   You would only add gypsum or white cement to lime plaster to make it set faster and harder, White cement may have application for outdoor murals when exposure to moist climate or rain might effect your work before the lime plaster has time to set up.

<<which pigments are you getting?>>

Finally getting the malachite - manufactured grade to start

Mars Black - I have been using this already, I like that it has no blue in it.

Irgazine Orange - a new substitute for Cadmium

Rinmans Green - a pretty green, to offset my Heliogen and Malachite

Cobalt Cerulean Blue I need this hue - is Zirconium better?

Terre Ercolano - a mix or earth oranges (Kremer)

Verono Green Earth w/viridian - a mix of green earths (Kremer)

A very yellow French Ochre (JTCLES)

Italina Raw Sienna

Genuine Green Earth (a big supply to what I am already using)

Mars Yellow - clear yellow oxide

One question - I plan on burning some green earth to make brown -have you ever done this? I want a dark brown/green lighter than raw umber.

Raw Umber from Cyprus


Some other bits and pieces - all from Kremer.

I don't know how many will end up in my final pallette.

I decided not to buy a muller - I'll stick to my autobody putty scrapers (the good, springy, German ones) on frosted sheet of glass


Any "been there, done that" ????


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Iliamoderator
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01-Apr-01, 12:38 PM (PST)
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9. "RE: Pigments "
In response to message #8
 

Hi Gary,

I would suggest testing all of the synthetic pigments (>Irgazine Orange - a new substitute >for Cadmium) thoroughly
and, if possible, not to use them at all.

Test it this way - grind some pigment with water and mix the resulted past with lime patty. Leave to sit for a long while (month?). If color changes - do not use it.

However this test is not the "ultimate test" - time is the best tester!
Here is an example from my studio:
I have about 2LB of the beautiful green - it was manufactured for fresco in 1930th, the original tin reads "Fine Fresco Pigments" - gift from a friend, former WPA artist. Guess what? this thing (gp) turns to ugly yellow almost as you mix it with lime. My explanation would be - some chemical reactions are very "slow" (read about it somewhere)- this pigment tested as perfect for fresco 70 years ago, but now formula became unstable.
So go figure!!!

Pigments you can trust:

Lime White
Cadmium Yellow, light
Yellow Ochre
Raw Sienna
Burnt Sienna
Pezzuole Red
Earth Red, red oxide
Light Red
Venitian Red
Cadmium Red
Raw Umber
Burnt Umber
Terra Verde
Malachite Green
Verdaccio
Veridian
Cobalt Green
Cobalt Blue
Ultramarine
Lapis Lasuly (cost an arm and a leg)


Glass mullers are expensive, traditionally they where substituted with small polished blocks of marble or granite. You can get those cheaply in local marble place

Ilia Anossov
http://www.truefresco.com/workshop

PS. I do not see why anyone will need to speed up the curing of the plaster. I always look to extand it - more time to paint - better results?


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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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10. "RE: Pigments "
In response to message #9
 
   Yes, of course Ilia, this is excellent advice.

I am also depending on what the pigment suppliers are recommending, for example Irgazine is recommended as a fresco color by Sinopia. Kremer & Sinopia both advise the (synthetic?) ultramarine can can change hue - they recommend a mix "stablised for fresco" and I have been happily using it. The Cadmium colors, according to Kremer, "should only be used indoors". Malachite and azurite, kremer again, should be made up fresh each day otherwise a color change in the water.

I may need to "crank out" frescoes for the masses in the park, art fairs etc. - if the time is right, and you have just paid your $2000 in exhibit fees, you have to get moving - when Monday comes it will be all over. I am now painting a small detailed dove from a Tiepolo piece, it is 8" x12", takes less than half an hour to paint and will sell for fifty bucks. I can forsee the need to make a whole bunch of fast selling small items in one day - thats where the speedup cure comes in, they can be ready to sell within twenty fours hours.


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Gary sculptari click here to view user rating
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11. "RE: Pigments "
In response to message #9
 
   Ilia:

What color is verdaccio?

My guess is "burnt" green earth - am I right?


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Yoram Neder click here to view user rating
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12. "RE: Pigments "
In response to message #11
 
   Hi Gary
Verdaccio. I translate freely from "Pittura murale" Del Giuseppe Ronchetti: "...Take the amount of one big bean of dark Ochre (because there are two kind of Ochre, light and dark); and if you do not have dark take light well ground. Put it in a glass vase, add a little black, mix it. take a little Bianco sangiovanni, approximately one third of a bean; take one point of small knife of light Cinabrese (kind of Terra rossa); Mix them all togather and add clear water without tempera (adhesiv)..." "...This color called in Firenze Verdaccio, in Siena Bazzo..."
Traditionally it was used to line the first pattern of the painting on the Intonaco. With addition of some terra verde it was used for the the first layer of flesh in shading spots with flesh tones on top of it.
Happy Passover
Yoram


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